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Comment by Todd Serveto on July 13, 2012 at 9:00am

这不是很有趣，在这里，在美国以及许多其他西方国家，马克思列宁主义（阅读：社会主义/共产主义）升职大学，而在中国，人们实际上得生活在那种锁定暴政，这是大学生的人站起来抗议。西方往往被西方诋毁，当人们生活在共产党暴政鼓噪“西方改革”惊人，是不是？


我知道你是贵国政府的防守，我不怪你想给对方的问题。但你明白了什么：言论自由，新闻自由，宗教自由，以及对幸福的追求（这意味着他们可以自由选择的地方去，住哪里，做什么的权利生活）被认为是珍惜，上帝赋予的不可剥夺的人权，大多数美国人和大多数的西方人。抑制这些权利的任何政府，将被视为残暴，专制和极权主义的，将受到严厉谴责。然后，当你添加在政府授权的女婴，谴责熄灭图表。


其次，你暗示刘晓波煽动与外界的帮助这些学生，它是因为人的不满，看待tiannamen广场发生的外国人。这太荒谬了！这些人生活在那里！他们知道他们是怎么和他们有生活在独裁政府压制基本人权的。你认为中国人的平均是真的那么愚蠢，他们无法弄清楚自己的？你不相信，他们可以为自己着想？他们并不需要外界的影响，让他们不满 - 他们住它每天。


第三，没有，没有人希望回到所谓的“殖民时代”的地方，它似乎是一个富有的人的小团体可能会利用群众在贫困凋敝。但是，为什么它是一个极端或其他？为什么是唯一的选择，一个残暴的铁腕极权专政或缺乏总量控制，有没有机会晋升或弱势群体的司法？不能有一个健康的平衡呢？为什么我们预计在中国的残暴虐待和腐败视而不见呢？你真的期望我们忽略，假装不要紧吗？它的问题，人们关注。

(translation)

Isn't it interesting that here in the United States as well as in many other Western countries, Marxism-Leninism (read: socialism/communism) get promoted at the universities, while in China where people actually have to live locked under that kind of tyranny, it was the university students who stood up and protested.  The West tends to be denigrated in the West, while people living under Communist tyranny clamor for "Western Reforms"  Amazing, isn't it?

I understand you being defensive of your government and I don't blame you for wanting to give the other side of the issue.  But you've got to understand something: the right to freedom of expression, a free press, freedom of religion, and the pursuit of happiness (which means being able to freely choose where to go, where to live, and what to do for a living) are considered cherished, God-given, inalienable human rights by most Americans and by the majority of westerners.  Any government that suppresses those rights is going to be considered tyrannical, despotic, and Totalitarian, and will be SEVERELY condemned.  Then, when you add in government-mandated infanticide, the condemnation goes off the charts.

Secondly, you're implying that Liu Xiaobo incited those students with the help of outsiders, and that it was because of foreigners getting the people disgruntled that Tiannamen Square happened.  That's ridiculous!  THOSE PEOPLE LIVE THERE!  THEY know what they're going through and what they're having to live with under a dictatorial government that suppresses basic human rights.  Do you think that the average Chinese people are really so stupid that they can't figure that out on their own?  Don't you believe that they can think for themselves?  They don't need outside influences to get them disgruntled--they live it every day.

Third, no, nobody wants to go back to the so-called "colonial days" where it seemed that a small group of wealthy people could exploit the masses who languished in poverty.  But why does it have to be one extreme or the other?  Why are the only choices a tyrannical, iron-fisted Totalitarian dictatorship or a total lack of control where there is no opportunity for advancement or justice for the disadvantaged?  Can't there be a healthy balance?  And why are we all expected to turn a blind eye to the outrageous abuses and corruption in China?  Do you really expect us all to ignore that and pretend it doesn't matter?  It DOES matter, and people ARE concerned.  

Comment by Will on July 13, 2012 at 8:52am

I had a Chinese friend who said they don't bow to the Emporer and they don't bow to the English. "We stand up," she said.

But she did not stand up to the Communist Party.

The Chinese are not the masters of their land; the Party is. A very different thing. And the same everywhere. I like our form of government, but I'm not the master of it.

Comment by JonEdanger on July 13, 2012 at 5:53am

@ Chuck: I didn't know you could read Chinese.

Comment by Chuck Knight on July 13, 2012 at 12:49am

Tiananmen Square and the associated events did seem to represent a cultural tipping point in China.  Since then, China has become significantly more open, and Westernized, and seemingly by the demands of the youth.  It's actually been quite fascinating to watch the country develop; parts of it remaining very traditional, while other parts leaped into the 20th and 21st centuries.