(First of all, I decided to post this here rather than in the Men Supporting Men group -- where insults and bullying are not allowed -- because I thought there would be more participation here.)

(Secondly, I have many LGBTQ friends, whom I support in any way that I can.  Some are single, some are committed, some are married.  None of them are the attention-grabbing persons we see on TV at festivals and parades.  They are just ordinary persons who have a sexual attraction that is not heterosexual.)

The whole question of transgender persons in the military is being discussed a lot these days, after the President changed their being welcome in the military.  At first glance, this can seem like a great injustice is being done to persons who have done nothing illegal.

But I also read recently about specifics relating to the military, and relating to persons who are transitioning.  There is very little privacy usually in the military, with gang showers, etc. being very common.

A female military person was quoted recently about how uncomfortable she would be if a person who is transitioning were showering at the same time she was.  This person (for example) may have begun hormone therapy and therefore have female breasts.  But s/he had not had the sexual reassignment surgery, so s/he still has male genitalia (in addition to the female breasts).

I know that I would personally feel a little uncomfortable in a gang shower with a person who had a masculine chest and/or or facial/body hair but who also had a vagina rather than a dick and balls.  (I would also feel uncomfortable having a person next to me at urinals who looked and acted like a woman just because she was born a male and that's what the rules say the person must do as far as restrooms are concerned.  And besides, who is going to check persons' birth certificates at the door to ascertain that they are entering the "correct" restroom?)

What do you guys think?  Remember: No insults or bullying.  Just a mature discussion, please.  Thank you, brothers.

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Replies to This Discussion

Privacy is your concern?

Yes.  Their ability to measure up as persons in the military is the same as anyone else, I feel.

Sooo not the dilation process or sitting next to someone, armed, who is so obsessed with chopping off their own dick that they're on long term antidepressants and mind altering hormones their body was never designed to function with. It's all about showers?

The fact that the fake vagina is actually an open wound is pretty frightful. They have to use dildos to keep it from closing up.

40+% suicide rate.

I wonder what that would look like when paired with vets' suicide rate.

I remember a time when 'progressives' claimed to want to keep weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill.  Interesting to see them argue for arming the most suicidal demographic, by far.


Just to play devil's advocate - is it possible, that pervasive social stigma's which allow for bans against them (in various capacities, including this one) to pass political muster, could be a major contributor to that suicide rate? 

Do you have any idea why their suicide rate is so high?

I doubt you'll find a reliable answer on that:  it's too politically sensitive, so you'll get this:

* Transgender suicide rates are high

* Transgender persons have been know to suffer from [cause we would like the reader to blame it on]

* More needs to be done to combat [said cause]

(At least, that's what Uncle Google found for me.)

The best answer would be a survey of those that attempted suicide to ask why.  Even that might not be enough.  I strongly suspect the most common answer would be essentially "I felt horribly depressed."  Even the suicidal person may not know why he's depressed.

So I think we're stuck with the fact, with the reason(s) being in the realm of opinion.

S, here's excerpts of a suicide note from a trans teenager, Leelah Alcorn. What I think it shows is exactly what you'd expect: society telling her she isn't a person caused her to no longer want to be a person. 

When I was 14, I learned what transgender meant and cried of happiness. ... I immediately told my mom, and she reacted extremely negatively, telling me that it was a phase, that I would never truly be a girl, that God doesn’t make mistakes, that I am wrong. If you are reading this, parents, please don’t tell this to your kids. Even if you are Christian or are against transgender people don’t ever say that to someone, especially your kid. That won’t do anything but make them hate them self. That’s exactly what it did to me. ...

I formed a sort of a “fuck you” attitude towards my parents and came out as gay at school, thinking that maybe if I eased into coming out as trans it would be less of a shock. Although the reaction from my friends was positive, my parents were pissed. They felt like I was attacking their image, and that I was an embarrassment to them. ...

After a summer of having almost no friends plus the weight of having to think about college, save money for moving out, keep my grades up, go to church each week and feel like shit because everyone there is against everything I live for, I have decided I’ve had enough. I’m never going to transition successfully, even when I move out. I’m never going to be happy with the way I look or sound. I’m never going to have enough friends to satisfy me. I’m never going to have enough love to satisfy me. I’m never going to find a man who loves me. I’m never going to be happy. Either I live the rest of my life as a lonely man who wishes he were a woman or I live my life as a lonelier woman who hates herself. There’s no winning. There’s no way out. I’m sad enough already, I don’t need my life to get any worse. People say “it gets better” but that isn’t true in my case. It gets worse. Each day I get worse. ...

The only way I will rest in peace is if one day transgender people aren’t treated the way I was, they’re treated like humans, with valid feelings and human rights.

She was discovering something so important to her sense of self: gender. That shouldn't be so hard for a group of people who joined a website predicated on masculinity to empathize with. To have that essential feeling denied across society and especially in the home was crushing. So crushing that she saw no end to pain except death. And that's the power of transphobia.

That's what we got, all right, with the "more needs to be done to combat X" being implied.


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