Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Will on June 22, 2012 at 2:58pm

I haven't looked in depth into charter schools.  I know the ones in New York City are available by lottery.  Like other public schools, they do have to take everybody who walks in the door . . . until they're full.  Then they don't, but they're still not picking their students.

I do wonder about the mainstreaming thing, and the Standards of Learning.  (More about the quality than the expense on the last one.  SOL's have got to have an effect on the education, but I don't see how they'd affect the expense, except possibly to reduce it by limiting time in things like band and PE.)

Permalink Reply by StaggerLee on October 8, 2012 at 2:25pm

The Public Schools have to take eeverybody who can make it through the door.

 

I think you have hit the cost-driver right on the head. The cost-per-student is an average drawn from a pool which includes the learning disabled as well as the behaviorally challenged. The appropriateness of accepting these populations is a debate for another thread however it is safe to say that, when averaged in, special-ed services will drive up the per student cost average unless controlled for, which it usually isn't.

Permalink Reply by Rick Shelton on October 19, 2012 at 10:04am

I think you hit the nail on the head.  Public schools are required to teach to the lowest level of the classroom and the teachers spend an inordinate amount of time with relatively few pupils (the ones who don't 'get it' or the troublemakers).  This takes time away from the more advanced students.  It gets worse when you have an exceptionally large classroom, which is the norm in most public schools in the larger cities.

Permalink Reply by Rick Shelton on June 22, 2012 at 11:15am

1. Check out how much is being spent on sports programs at the schools in the state

2. Check out how much is being spent on "after school programs" that have nothing to do with education but are simply after care for older kids and end up being sports based (basketball, etc.)

3. Check out how much is being spent on Special Needs programs (this is necessary and I have nothing against these programs at all), this includes the Gifted and Honor programs.

I think you will find that quite a lot of money is being spent on non-educational programs such as sports and after school programs.

Permalink Reply by ARK on June 22, 2012 at 5:44pm

I think you will find that quite a lot of money is being spent on non-educational programs such as sports and after school programs.

That money doesn't come from state general revenue funds. Districts have to fund athletics and fine arts themselves (at least that's the way Texas public schools operate). They do so through a combination of local school district taxes and issuing bonds; both of these have to be approved by voters. 

Permalink Reply by Todd Serveto on June 23, 2012 at 2:05am

A.R.K., what appears on the surface often times has a lot going on underground.  With regard to this, I could have a football team for the boys that practiced strictly after school, and I could just have a coach and an assistant coach run it.  But let's say I REALLY want to go all out with sports, yet fly under the radar of those who would complain about the money...here's how it works:  I make football a "class" that we give credit for, thus I can hire teachers for it.  Since I really want four or five guys concentrating on athletics, I hire them in to teach a few other classes, but then have them all "teach" athletics the last hour of the day.  I have teachers "teach" the other sports as well.  

Thus, instead of hiring a full-time staff of teachers for my academics and paying a couple of those guys who are interested to take on an after-school program, I make athletics a regular part of the teaching day and hire all these coaches who "teach" athletics as well as some history, health, driver's ed, etc.

A man I work with taught physics (I believe it was in Texas).  He was running around to other classrooms borrowing junk so he could put on physics experiments and demos for his kids (since there was no money to purchase anything for his classroom), yet the football field was state of the art.  Something's wrong with that picture, in anybody's language.

Permalink Reply by Native Son on June 23, 2012 at 11:09am

It ain't just in Teaxas, amigo.

I've sat in meetings held in a high school auditorium that had part of the stage held together with duct tape...and listened to the football coaches argue for why their recently upgraded field needed upgrades- to be paid for out of the funds from a just passed school facilities repair bond issue.

Over the last few years, the number of state mandates has increased, simultaneously, elementary school music - gone; PE - down to the state mandated minimum; Elementary school and middle school libraries - open one day a week, per school; restroom supplies - rationed (and on each elementary school teacher's "Classroom Wish List"; basic office supplies, such as copy paper - available at some schools only by parents' donation; School nurses - definitely a thing of the past.

But, damn, the High School ball fields are magnificent!  Although for a couple of years, the athletes' parents had to pony up most of the sports funding.

Permalink Reply by Todd Serveto on June 23, 2012 at 3:20pm

NS--you are giving perfect examples of the results of what I talked about below.  Look at school nurses.  What do they do?  They record heights and weights, give meds, monitor kids with diabetes or allergies, and watch for signs of abuse.  They take temperatures, check for head lice, give health talks, and are available to give emergency first aid--ABSOLUTELY nothing that ANY trained nurse shouldn't be able to do.  So why can't the school hire a vocational nurse who wants to work with kids?  Or an LPN who wants a change of pace?  Oh no, oh, no...can't have that...Gotta be an RN and probably even have your bachelor's degree, and maybe even so many years of experience and special state certification--so schools go without a nurse entirely.

Then you mentioned elementary and middle school libraries being open one day per week.  The school can't just have a teacher or some staff member run the library, however--gotta have a media specialist---a STATE CERTIFIED School Librarian---with a MASTER'S DEGREE--to let the grade school kids have a library.

Then you mentioned P.E. on the elementary level.  Can't just have the classroom teacher take the kids out, do some calisthenics, and play some dodge ball---oh no--the sun might not come up in the morning if we did that.  Gotta have some specially certified Physical Education teacher who's been trained in kinesiology, sports medicine, and everything else...to take the grade school kids out--but even THEN they don't get to play dodge ball---"somebody might get hurt".

 

Permalink Reply by Native Son on June 23, 2012 at 4:35pm

The "School Nurse" position was given as an example.   BTW, and speaking from family experience, there is a significant difference between the training and the permitted activities of a RN, a LVN, or a PA (Registered Nurse, Licensed Vocational Nurse, and Physician's Assistant) or Paramedic in my state.

In the "old days", if a child didn't feel well (and often in elementary school that translated to "I need a nap"), the "school nurse served as a gatekeeper who was permitted to do an initial evaluation.  Right now, in my neck of the woods, the only option is park the kid in the front office and call the parents to pick the child up. 

As to the other items...as you well know, that's more the fault of the "Professional Educational Establishment" than anything else.  Who sets the standards for Math, English, History, Chemistry, PE teachers and school librarians?  The Professional Staff at the State Board of Education.  And who are those folks?  Why, Professional Educators, of course.

Oh, the prohibition on Dodge Ball purely ain''t anything new.  Back in 1965 (and I was there.), the educational "powers that be" were banning pretty much anything that involved an injury risk during recess and lunch.

And let's not forget, that thanks to the lack of pretty much any ability on the part of the professional educational administrators to actually size anybody up, enough perverts got hired by local school districts, to force the mandatory fingerprinting and criminal history checks on ANY Parent who wants to volunteer on campus or to chaperone a field trip.

As an aside, I've been background checked for stuff far more involved (and more responsible) than chaperoning an elementary school class trip, including being licensed as a Foster Parent, but of course none of those documented checks are recognized by the State Education Dept.

Permalink Reply by Todd Serveto on June 23, 2012 at 7:51pm

So once again, we're basically corroborating one another...the state regulations translate into vast spending demands, and the absence of any common sense results in absurd roadblocks and prohibitions---then we wonder where all the money went.

Yes, I'm aware that there are differences between RN's and LPN's--and my point is, that either one should be able to be a school nurse.  

Mandates and state requirements need to be kept in line with what is realistic and truly expedient.  Media specialists have their place (and so do P.E. teachers), but when expense meets common sense, innovation should occur---and often it doesn't.

The dodge ball ban is simply too asinine to even comment on.  Suffice it to say that any school with a football team, yet goes around banning dodge ball because "someone might get hurt", has something backwards.

Permalink Reply by Rick Shelton on October 7, 2012 at 3:22pm

I recently read an article, ok, actually the title of the article, about a high school football stadium that cost $60 million.  Really?   For a high school team?  Yep, really.  And that was in Texas.  So you have to ask where the priorities are.

Permalink Reply by Todd Serveto on June 23, 2012 at 1:50am

I teach in a public school in a high-poverty area.  SO much of the cost involved in running a public school has to do with compliance with mind-numbingly stupid regulations that defy common sense.  Ridiculous mandates, stultifying requirements, and dozens of hoops to jump through sometimes make it seem that no cost is too great to ask, no rule is too absurd to impose on us, and we end up doing just about everything other than teach school.  Sometimes I feel like we're essentially being told, "since you KNOW that these kids aren't getting it at home (whatever "it" happens to be), then you're expected to provide it."

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