Lets have an honest thread on the topic of race. Just share honest thoughts. Don't overly censor yourself, but don't make a joke of this either. I want us to have a serious and honest conversation on the subject.

I do accept that race is a biological reality, not just a cultural construct. I do not posit the idea of one master race, as there have been worthy societies produced by multiple races, such as the civilizations of Europe and of Asia, when considered together. I however, view with immense doubt and skepticism the claim that all races, on average, have the same level of intellect. But, I don't support any nature of social system based on de jure racial stratification, because there are always outliers in any population, and its hard to measure these things in a manner that would enable simple categorization. I'm not about sterilizing someone over an IQ test.

I want thoughts.

Views: 684

Replies to This Discussion

You know, Dominic, for someone who demand I listen better, you don't appear to be very good at it yourself.  I gave a number of reasons why African-American people are in the plite they're in.  Race-bating was only one of them, and my list was by no means a comprehensive one.  As to my feelings, I was not looking for validation, and I do not have a need to escape criticism.  The point I was trying to make is that race relations suck big time, and it's not because of anything I have or haven't done.  Perhaps you'd like to tell me what it is black people have been trying to tell me that I just haven't heard.  And keep in mind I'm 40 years old, and have been following politics closely since I was 15.  Not as old or as long as some, to be sure, but neither am I some young buck unaware of any historical perspective prior to the day I was born.  And before you admonish me to listen more carefully, perhaps it would help you to know that I am a member of a far smaller minority than most of them out there by virtue of my poor vision since the age of 2.  Blind and low-vision people have to put up with crap you're not even aware of.  Yet, nobody listens to us.  My disability does not define me, and I'm not out there demanding more rites than someone else to make up for what I supposedly lack.  Of course it's not the same thing as my ancestors being enslaved and mistreated for generations.  I'm mearly saying that bad things happen to a lot of people that are beyond their control and aren't always the fault or responsibility of someone else to put right.  We all play the hand we're dealt. 

"My disability does not define me, and I'm not out there demanding more rites than someone else to make up for what I supposedly lack."

And that is to your credit, but some people in your position certainly do (with the caveat that I don't think anyone is asking for "more" rights, just fair implementation of the same rights). Sometimes it's as simple as requesting enforcement of ADA guidelines. Sometimes it is more drastic. But it does happen, and while they are not your actions, it is quite likely you will be linked to them. 

"aren't always the fault or responsibility of someone else to put right.  We all play the hand we're dealt. "

Aye. But sometimes, there are legitimate roles government can play to ensure that you are all at least playing with access to the full deck.

"I gave a number of reasons why African-American people are in the plite they're in."

You gave unsubstantiated claims about race-baiting, the welfare system, and "thug culture" that are the same baseless arguments kicked around conservative echo chambers for years. These arguments are more often than not part of dog whistle politics.

"Blind and low-vision people have to put up with crap you're not even aware of."

If you feel comfortable, please tell me so that I understand those challenges, so that I'm better informed.

"If you feel comfortable, please tell me so that I understand those challenges, so that I'm better informed"

I am totally comfortable discussing my disability and the personal and social challenges that come with it, but I won't here now for two reasons.  First, I would like to keep this thread centered on the issue of race as the OP intended.  I would prefer not to be the guy who took the thread in an entirely different direction.  Second, forgive me for being a little suspicious of your motives for wanting me to discuss myself at all.  I suspect if I do bring up my disability as it relates to race and treatment of minorities, all you'll do is pick it apart and tell me how the issues I deal with have no baring on anything at all being discussed here.  Perhaps I'm just more tired and cranky than usual today, but you've made it clear you're not interested in any sort of discussion of the points I tried to make, so why would I open myself up to more attacks?  If you see me online here on the site, or if you'd like to hear about the difficulties I deal with as someone with a substantial vision loss in private messages,  feel free.
Just because my points have been, as you say, "kicked around conservative echo chambers" does not invalidate those points.  And I don't feel the need to site studies, reports, articles, etc. to support them.  The OP certainly didn't request anyone else do that.  I simply read the post, and responded with my observations and what I thought.  You're certainly free to disagree with what I think, but don't write off what I have to say simply because it happens to be what your political aponents are saying as well. 

(Aside from the "dog whistle" trope, whereby we can blame others for what we're thinking -- ! -- I greatly prefer your post to any sort of just labeling JD's post.)

I think you've got a point that these arguments need to be backed up.  The breakdown of the two-parent family is documented, and the correlations to social ills are strong, regardless of race.  But I think the lure of welfare is greatly overstated.  I don't think many people want to live that way.  Would any of us?

Also:  acceptance of a "thug" culture?  Everything I get from the black community by media is about how horrified adults are by it and how much they want to make sure their kids escape it.  Existence, sure, but acceptance?

The best backup I know to the failing-schools idea is what happens when you have a lottery to get into a magnet school (NYC), to students who do, and don't, get in.  Those that get in do better.  So I'd say we have some backup for that:  it's not just schools getting blamed for serving less able populations, but schools that could use actual improvements.  

Simply because you and I would prefer rather than sit back and take welfare benefits doesn't mean those taking them now don't want them.  Have you ever been on welfare or received any kind of public assistance benefits?  They often pay better than a semi-decent job.  One of my blind friends who has been receiving benefits for many years tells me he'd have to work a job with a good wage to equal the same amount he receives now after taxes and so on have been removed from his checks.  Why work for what you can just sit back and take?

As far as schools and education, there's no doubt many reforms need to be made.  The fact that some schools in wealthy areas get far more money than schools in poorer areas doesn't seem right.  And I am no fan of wealth redistribution.  But it seems that it would be better for all the schools in a given locality to have the available funds equally disbursed.

"Why work for what you can just sit back and take?"

Again, you are asserting that people would prefer that. That's a judgment and I'm not sure your assertion is supported when you try to extend it to all those on government assistance. 

I've been part of a family receiving public assistance and it certainly wasn't heaps of money being tossed on the front doorstep.  On the topic of wanting the benefits, I know my mother always felt a great deal of shame in taking them.

Looks like somebody did listen to people of various colors or lack thereof, about their experiences.  The results surprised me.

http://community.artofmanliness.com/group/thebiblicalparadigm/forum...

Unfortunately I don't have time to type out a huge answer but a few brief thoughts. My understanding is that there is a gap in educational attainment between races in the UK but my view is that it could be down to socio-economic difficulties rather than race. I'm not saying that there's a difference in intelligence per se, just qualifications and grades obtained.

I also believe that cultural differences can be more important than race - I've met plenty black people born in the UK who are culturally British and the only difference is the colour of their skin.

My main thought on race though is how 'reverse racist' the UK is. Not only do we have 'affirmative action'-type laws, I feel other races get treated differently in public. People are worried about saying anything negative to a black/asian person incase they get accused of racism. Also there are groups such as the Black and Asian Policeman's Association. I suspect if a cop wanted to form a White Policeman's Association, he'd at least lose his job, possibly also be charged with some sort of hate crime.

I could also mention the many African-Americans who voted for Obama simply because he kind've looked like them. If people had said 'I'm voting McCain because I want a white president' this would've gone down very differently!

"Also there are groups such as the Black and Asian Policeman's Association."

We have many similar things here - the general rationale is that groups of significant minorities in a given environment often have specific topics and needs in common which are not addressed by systems in place for the majority groups already well set. 

Any majority group, especially one perceived to wield the most political or economic power, will have a hard time (perception wise) if it makes attempts to create groups that appear to solidify their power rather than share it. 

"Lets have an honest thread on the topic of race. Just share honest thoughts. Don't overly censor yourself, but don't make a joke of this either. I want us to have a serious and honest conversation on the subject."

From your first paragraph I was hopeful that you were asking for men to respond honestly from their heart and feelings.  The thread took off as academic research reports.

I'm white, male, and recently hit 60. I've had very few non white friends not by choice or design, simply because of proximity. And I regret this immensely.  Those friends that I have had have added to my life in ways my white acquaintances and friends are unable to.

I love where I live and yet regret not being able to live in a city where people of other colors than I,  have opportunities and rise to middle and upper middle class.

I have bias thoughts and quick judgments about people, then quickly catch myself and move on. I know others do also, everyone does. Its what we do with those thoughts in the next 5 seconds that shows who we are.

The idea that research has done anything of value in determining the potential of a race or people is absurd science. throughout history one race has tried to categorize and define another race for it's own gain. What do I as an individual have to gain with those theories and hypothesis?  Isn't my desire to build a connection to others? Make friends, have fun. 

The more opportunities I have to experience another person and hear another's story the richer my life becomes.  I can visit foreign lands or meet my neighbors.

RSS

Latest Activity

Pale Horse replied to Lumberjoe's discussion What happens when Islamic sexism meets Icelandic feminism / gender equality? Let's find out! in the group The Great Debate
"Daggumit, Shane, read Dune."
16 minutes ago
Pale Horse replied to Pale Horse's discussion Best Methods for Cutting Down on Sweets
"Or better yet, think of the people who unironically have waifus!"
18 minutes ago
Pale Horse replied to Pale Horse's discussion Best Methods for Cutting Down on Sweets
"Wow, congratulations. My goal is just to have a more healthful diet. I am not overweight, but I do have a family history of diabetes, and I know eventually when I'm older that eating junk food will have greater consequences. Thanks for the…"
19 minutes ago
Pale Horse replied to Pale Horse's discussion Best Methods for Cutting Down on Sweets
"Good point on changing the mindset. I think most of us have an "I shouldn't" frame of mind rather than an "I don't" frame of mind, at least when it comes to vices. I'm not sure I want to watch one of those…"
22 minutes ago
Pale Horse replied to Pale Horse's discussion Best Methods for Cutting Down on Sweets
"Same here, an ice cold coke is one of the best things on earth. Mexican coke is more expensive here too, so maybe if I only drink that I'll cut down out of monetary necessity!"
26 minutes ago
Braeden replied to Lumberjoe's discussion What happens when Islamic sexism meets Icelandic feminism / gender equality? Let's find out! in the group The Great Debate
"If Shane and Clinton have united against you, its time to stop and think about your life."
29 minutes ago
Sir replied to Lumberjoe's discussion What happens when Islamic sexism meets Icelandic feminism / gender equality? Let's find out! in the group The Great Debate
"It's always possible to put spin on.  Doesn't mean much, though."
30 minutes ago
Clinton R. Ausmus replied to Lumberjoe's discussion What happens when Islamic sexism meets Icelandic feminism / gender equality? Let's find out! in the group The Great Debate
"You completely missed the point..."
34 minutes ago

© 2017   Created by Brett McKay.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service