Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on November 16, 2012 at 12:46pm

Because conservative is about the individual person and their freedom from an oppressive government.

 

No, that's libertarian, not a function of conservatism itself.

Permalink Reply by Paul_of_TX on November 16, 2012 at 12:51pm

Conservatives want a smaller government. When a government gets too big it will almost always become opressive. Just because a government has gone several clicks past where conservatives would like it to be doesn't negate their desire for a small government. They want a small government not a smaller government. If our current government were to get smaller it could still be too big. Individual freedom is the central force behind conservatism.

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on November 16, 2012 at 12:56pm

Conservatives want a government of appropriate size to the task required of it. Bigger or smaller in and of themselves don't mean anything here. Conservatives make assessments and decide what makes sense, not automatically one or the other.

 

If the only refrain is "smaller government, less taxes", that's often a dogmatic position (Grover Norquist's pledge, for instance), and thus a liberal stance, despite its dovetail to the republican party - it is not conservative.

Permalink Reply by Paul_of_TX on November 16, 2012 at 12:58pm

Conservatives want a small government. Maybe it would be better if I said conservatives want a limited government with clearly defined roles and this is what keeps it small.

Permalink Reply by Jack Bauer on November 16, 2012 at 1:08pm

Norquist's position is conservative insofar as people have decided that the current size of domestic government for the allotted tasks is so out-of-whack that the only rational option is to cut.  It is the logical conclusion once you've decided that government is excessively and inappropriately large in relation to the tasks that should be required of it.

 

The "smaller government, less taxes" "refrain" is not a restatement the argument -- it is simply a statement of the conclusion.  It is an overstatement to say that "it is not conservative" -- under your definition of the term -- based on that alone.

JB

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on November 16, 2012 at 1:47pm

Fair enough - though I would argue that very many people take it as a dogmatic position, rather than a rationale one. It also does not take into account actual economic history and facts particularly well. 

 

But yes - not the best example to illustrate the point I was making.

Permalink Reply by SB on November 16, 2012 at 2:06pm

Ok, so let's take the next logical step.  Can you express the conservative (or liberal) philosophy in a cohesive enough manner that you can shift the mindset of someone from the opposite 'side'?  Can we articulate this belief system well enough to make a 'convert'?

Permalink Reply by SB on November 16, 2012 at 2:07pm

And if so, how would you do it?

Permalink Reply by LShieldes on November 16, 2012 at 2:11pm

Nope, it would be a waste of time. The best we can do is to learn to understand each other in a more rational sense so that we can work together to find acceptable common ground. Trying to convert would be more useless than me in a singing competition

Permalink Reply by Jack Bauer on November 16, 2012 at 2:52pm

I don't think converts are "won" like that.  Minds aren't changed much by argument, they're changed by experience.

 

People entrenched on the opposite side are largely immune to argument anyway.  They've already heard it all.  You might be able to win some that aren't entrenched.  But, that's not really changing somebody's mind ... its convincing them to make up their mind.

JB

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on November 16, 2012 at 3:05pm

I don't think converts are "won" like that.  Minds aren't changed much by argument, they're changed by experience.

 

Or good evidence.

Permalink Reply by SB on November 16, 2012 at 3:07pm

So the general consensus, then, is that we cannot shift someones mindset to the point where they will accept an alternate view.  in your view, the trend that we see of people becoming more conservative as they get older is simply experience.  

Interesting. Thank you for your comments.  

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