Becoming, or Theosis (perhaps Apotheosis...you decide)
If our purpose, as humans, is to become more like the Creator...then why is the following so difficult to comprehend?
- That as we advance as a race, we will actually BECOME more like him, thereby removing some of the distance (mystically, scientifically, morally, whatever aspect you choose) between the Deity and ourselves.
- That when you're told that God is so Great that we will never be able to be like him, that you swallow it, hook, line, and sinker? This leads to a servile relationship with God, which is not what is intended.
- That our relationship with "The Holy Father" is intended to be a paternal relationship...in the BEGINNING. As we advance, as individuals and as a species, that relationship with The Holy Father will change, just as our relationship with our own fathers changed. Think about it...how do you interact with your father now, as opposed to when you were 5, and when you were 13, and 18? Much more of a relationship of two peers, ideally, isn't it?
- That no single "religion" is going to have all the answers. That as humans, we are tasked with finding the truth for ourselves (isn't there a quote by Jesus about searching out the truth somewhere?), and that means looking everywhere for it? Little known fact...what's the difference between the Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism? They all worship the same God, which is the God of Abraham....it's only key historical figures that are different.
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- That as we advance as a race, we will actually BECOME more like him, thereby removing some of the distance (mystically, scientifically, morally, whatever aspect you choose) between the Deity and ourselves.
- That when you're told that God is so Great that we will never be able to be like him, that you swallow it, hook, line, and sinker? This leads to a servile relationship with God, which is not what is intended.
- That our relationship with "The Holy Father" is intended to be a paternal relationship...in the BEGINNING. As we advance, as individuals and as a species, that relationship with The Holy Father will change, just as our relationship with our own fathers changed. Think about it...how do you interact with your father now, as opposed to when you were 5, and when you were 13, and 18? Much more of a relationship of two peers, ideally, isn't it?
- That no single "religion" is going to have all the answers. That as humans, we are tasked with finding the truth for ourselves (isn't there a quote by Jesus about searching out the truth somewhere?), and that means looking everywhere for it? Little known fact...what's the difference between the Christianity, Muslim, and Judaism? They all worship the same God, which is the God of Abraham....it's only key historical figures that are different.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joseph L. Rogers on -
Bring it. And I don't want any fucking pics put up calling me crazy, either. I consider this to be well-reasoned, and I expect the same from you.
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Permalink Reply by Herb Munson on -
Much of your statements are based on the old and long discredited premise that man is evolving upward toward God. This view was very popular around the turn of the century and in Christian circles taught that man would evolve upward until he himself would bring in the perfect Kingdom on earth. WW1 put a big dent in the theory and WW2 put it to rest. This is the first I've seen of it for a very long time. The Bible is clear that man will not get better but worse...
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them." 2 Timothy 3:1-5
Concerning "no single 'religion' is going to have all the answers" ... I submit that too is incorrect. You refer, I believe to Jesus words in John 8:31-32...
"Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
So, Jesus Christ is the Truth. One of his most famous declarations of this is...
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6
Finally, I would respectfully submit that the God of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is not the same God at all. The God of Abraham is the same God of the Hebrews of the Old Testament. But, when that same God came into our world, he was soundly rejected by the Jewish people and is now, in a technical and theological sense, certainly not their God as far as they are concerned. I would like to quote from the first chapter of John here as it addresses several of these issues.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." 1:1-4
"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
As for the Muslim god, although a large number of the Islamic peoples are descendants of Abraham, the god of Mohammad's religion in no way resembles the true and living God of Abraham. As with the god of the Jewish people today, Allah too has no Son.
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Permalink Reply by Joseph L. Rogers on
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Don't have a lot of time...will have to get back about most of it. One question, though. I don't give a damn what the bible says...shouldn't we TRY to better, anyway? Isn't that the entire point, not just of life, but this forum, and being a Man?
Your distinction between the God of the Three Religions is pretty subjective. I think the Jews rejected the religion, rather than the God, didn't they? Same thing with Islam...they don't recognize Christ as an actual prophet, therefore the premise that he's God's son is moot. That's comparing the other two to a supposed absolute in Christianity. Try to look at it from an outside point of view, a bit more.
Last, what about the other points I made? Gimme a point by point reply, if you don't mind.
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Permalink Reply by Herb Munson on
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Well, sure we should all try to do and be better. I feel, however, that it requires supernatural intervention for us to actually make any headwater in doing so. The crux of the Jews' problem was Christ himself as is apparent by their trial and crucifixion of him. And actually, Islam does recognize Jesus as a great prophet but nothing more.
"That when you're told that God is so Great that we will never be able to be like him, that you swallow it, hook, line, and sinker? " God is God ... omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immense, eternal, holy and good to mention a few of his attributes. I rejoice in having a relationship with him and serving him. The thought of being his equal is not only totally impossible for any human being ... I, personally, have no desire to be so. He is my Lord in the sense of all that high title implies.
As for my relationship with the Father changing. Your observation there is certainly legitimate. I know him far more intimately today than when I first met Him back in college when I was around 22 years old. Our relationship has broadened and expanded over the years in too many ways to elaborate here. And, I am certain it will continue to do so throughout eternity ... and even then, I will have hardly scratched the surface of who and what he actually is.
Where you and I would disagree is in your ascertain that our whole race has a growing relationship with God, "As we advance, as individuals and as a species." If I'm reading you correctly, this is the "Fatherhood of God, brotherhood of man" teaching. He is our Creator but not our Father until we become his sons and daughters by entered into a real relationship with Him by faith in Jesus Christ. As Jesus put it in John 10:9, 14-15...
"I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
True relationship and son-ship with the Father can only be had by entering in by the "Door."
Somehow, Joseph ... you remind me of what the great Apostle Paul was like when his name was Saul and before he was confronted by Christ on the road to Damascus. It's an amazing account. You can read about it in the book of Acts 9. I'm not trying to provoke you at all ... just telling you how I feel when we engage one another.
Hope I've covered all you points. Let me know if I haven't.
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Permalink Reply by Deanna McGuire on -
Hello everyone! This is the WIFE of Asa C McGuire. He's always telling me about the things discussed here. I am not a man and am not searching for a way to be a man in any way. I'm perfectly happy with being a woman. I do however want to comment on this post.
Herb-
First and foremost to quote scripture as closely as you do one would have to believe that you trust fully not in God but in the church and honesty of man. In other words, you'd have to accept and trust that through out the expanse history of the old testament and later the new testament that every cleric, church, and so called vessel of God was telling the truth... which is that God spoke thru them and took control of their bodies to write these books of the Bible. To have this kind of blind trust in men you personally do not know is troubling to me. Could not one live today and make the same claim that God has spoken to/through him and this is what he said? It's all hearsay. I posit that there are many equally valid philosophies and interpretations. The possibility for an open and honest 'discussion' ends when one refuses to accept the possible validity of any interpretation than his own. Thereafter, it is only regurgitation of indoctrination. There can only be discussion between those who are open to reason and understanding beyond their own. This is how progress is made. Progress thru open and honest discourse and admitting that there isn't one on this earth who can know the whole truth. There is a quote that applies here.. "To be absolutely positive about something is to be wrong at the top of one's voice"
If need be we can all quote direct scriptures to seemingly validate what we believe. "Every religious sect is proof that God has not clearly revealed his will to man"
I've heard arguments made in support of slavery using the Bible and scriptures as proof. The regurgitation of scripture does not show the ability of a higher thinking being.
I do not know if I buy into the theory that man could possibly become God-like. In all honesty, I find it very hard to swallow that the warmongering, greedy, power hungry, self serving beings who share this earth with me would ever be able to reach that level of enlightenment and LOVE.
To deny that Judaism and Islam share the very same God of Christianity is an egocentric slant that has poisoned the churches of Christianity. They are the same God. I posit the differing doctrines and interpretations of each religion is proof of the fallibility of man and the Bible and NOT proof that there isn't only ONE GOD. The Bible you have today is not the original Bible. More specifically the Old Testament. There are books that existed and still exist in varying sects of Christianity and Judaism. There is no single compilation of truth on this earth. It has been changed (reduced, added to, omitted)... in short tampered with.
I posit that there is only one truth which is within each and every one of us... that truth is LOVE. Look at the world and your fellow man with LOVE in your heart and you'll begin to see a different picture. There isn't one constant. There is no black and white... only varying shades of grey. In my own humble opinion at this stage in the game there is only ONE capable and worthy of the judgement of mankind and that is God.
All of man's misguided beliefs that the truth lies within the Bible prevents him from ever finding the truth. Do you worship the Bible or the God of the Bible? From Genesis to Revelations there are more contradictions than I care to count. The truth is within each and every one of us. When a person reaches the point of enlightenment that he loves his ENEMY with a love that would lead him to lay down his life to save his ENEMY then that person will know the truth. Until then.. we'll all continue to muddle around in the darkness.
There is truth in the Bible but it isn't whole.
Just my two cents....
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Permalink Reply by Herb Munson on
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Nice "shot across the bow" there Deanna. I look forward to engaging you here. Most of what you have posited though, I have answered in various forms in various groups. I would respectfully ask you to check those discussions out a bit. You can find quite a few over in the Gentlemen Atheists group discussions as well as many in my own discussions found in the Forum under General Discussions.
Your understanding of the nature of Scripture is a flawed and biased one. I have studied it carefully for well over 46 years and have looked at everything from inspiration to preservation to dates written to authorship to original languages to systematic theology of the Bible to hermeneutics to eschatology to pneumatology to soteriology to higher criticism to cannonicity to the extra-biblical writings to church fathers to secular history to archeology to culture to issues raised by the synoptic gospels ... to name a just few things. My conclusion after having examined all these things as well as having read the Bible through countless times ... is that the Bible is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, just what it claims to be ... The Word of God. So, with all due respect to your opinions to the contrary ... if you would convince me you will have to prove otherwise.
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Permalink Reply by Liam S. on -
Herb
With all due respect as well. Many would find your understanding of the nature of scripture to be equally flawed and biased.
Just for what it's worth.
These are the answers you came to, but they do not reflect the answers that everyone comes to, even within the church. Whose is "correct" is largely a matter of opinion, like it or not. The burden of proof about the nature of scripture is as much on you, as it is on anyone else. And no - the book does not speak for itself.
Deanna has made some good points about the nature of the bible from its creation, all through men's interpretations and usage of it. And while you have addressed some of those, I would venture that precious few of them can be considered "answered" certainly not resolved.
Just my $.02.
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Permalink Reply by Deanna McGuire on
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:-)
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Permalink Reply by Deanna McGuire on
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There is no solid proof of my 'flawed and biased' understanding of the scripture. Just as there is no proof of your understanding. Unfortunately, we have entered the realm of opinion and interpretation. There is no 'provable' factual basis for your slant nor is there a 'provable' factual basis for mine. It's an opinion, a belief based on the individual studies of fallible human beings. There are greater minds than your's or mine who have debated this subject.
I suppose my point to you was, simply put, that you argue from a stand point of factual, 'provable' information when you can no more prove your position than can I or any of the others here. I do enjoy discussions with those who have a differing view point than my own. I enjoy it because I am open-minded enough to listen and consider their points as a possible truth. When you enter into a discussion with a preconceived notion that prevents you from even considering the validity of those who oppose you then there is no discussion at all.
I can honestly say that I haven't studied anything for 46 years as I have not been a guest on this big rock for that long. I can tell you, however, if you wish to convince those who oppose your theory that the Bible is truly the infallible word of God then you must offer them the proof that you ask from me. You know as well as I that you can NOT offer them that proof. If there were proof for either side of the coin then your quoting of scripture would not be questioned because it would be accepted by all as a universal constant. I have found that when the Bible is my only proof for an argument or belief I must concede that it is a belief not a fact. One would have to agree with your view of the Bible to argue on your level... with scripture alone. There are many religions and beliefs in this world who hold differing interpretations of the Bible and many more who do not even base their interpretations from the Bible.
When one takes such a closed-minded stance of literal interpretations it serves as a separating point between oneself of the majority of the rest of the world. I do not 'believe' that a good and loving God would want us to separate ourselves in such a way. I 'believe' God would want us united in our humanity as brothers and sisters and children of God. If you believe that God is our creator and heavenly Father then how can you believe that he does not love each and every one of us (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu.... and the list goes on)? Unless of course you believe that God is the creator of only Christians.
I was raised in a church and family who believes exactly as you do. It was through my own studies and more importantly my own prayer and soul-searching that lead me out the other side. To look at the world with the love of a being such as God is capable it makes no sense that he would damn so many of his children. There is one unifying factor in this world and that is LOVE. I believe that is our true test.. the one lesson we must all learn if you will. You mentioned you have children. You being a fallible human being, I assume, loves those children equally. Would you make the choice to damn one of those children on a technicality? If you can answer me, yes, that you would damn those children then I pose that you need to examine your definition of Love.
1 Corinthians 13
Love
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Christ's greatest commandment!!!!
Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
There are many more like it... that seem to prove my point.. that Love is the answer and the greatest lesson we must learn.
If I look at my fellow man with Love in my heart then all the other trivialities fall away and become insignificant. Being a mother of more than one child I can say that I love them both in all the differences and similarities. I honestly believe we will be pleasantly surprised that there will be more than Christians in heaven.
I've meandered far off from the original intent of this post. After reading many of your posts on this and other discussions I believe that while you are a decent person and are trying that you are missing the bigger picture. Getting lost in the scripture isn't the answer. Opening your front door and facing the world with love and understanding and compromise and most importantly open mindedness will lead us to a world of enlightenment. The world of Love that Christ knew was capable. Not a universe where only those who jump through the proper hoops are worthy of God's love.
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Permalink Reply by Herb Munson on
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Well presented, Deanna. You are assuming a couple of things about me, however, that are not true.
1. That God only loves Christians. In reality, I believe God loves everyone as John 3:16 so clearly states...
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
2. That there is no proof of my understanding of the Bible. On the contrary there is a great deal of proof ... everything from the hundreds of precisely fulfilled prophecies within its pages ... to its amazing preservation ... to the impact that Jesus Christ has had on the world (we even date from his life) ... to the millions of lives that it has changed for the better down through history ... to the selfless sacrifices of the follows of Christ to help the world around them ... to its supernatural consistency and infallibility even though written by many different authors over a period of over 1500 years and on 3 separate continents. These are to name just a few.
3. That one must agree with my view of Scripture in order to argue on my level. Nothing could be further from the truth. If it were, I would be a closed minded bigot and most certainly would not be debating here on this site. My worthy opponents at AoM debate with me all the time. And, although we often disagree ... they freely bring their arguments and I bring mine. You have felt free to attack the Bible and I have felt free to defend it ... and, although I adamantly disagree with you, I do not view you as a narrow minded bigot and I would appreciate it if you would extend to me the same courtesy.
4. Finally, as to your extensive comments and quotes from the Bible on the subject of "love" ... I too love those passages however I must disagree with the spin that you put on them. Those are your ideas and not the Bible's. You see, even though God is a God of love and loves each and every human being and sent his Son because of that love to die for the sins of each and every human being ... the God of the Bible is also Just and Righteous and Holy. That's why Jesus Christ had to die ... to satisfy God's righteous and holy and just demands against the evil and sin that exists in each and every human being. His holy character is a thing which, like as his love, stems from the very core of his nature as well. That why the Bible also says...
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:24-26
and...
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21
And these words from Jesus in John 8:24...
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
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Permalink Reply by asa c mcguire on -
Herb I do believe you missed the point. It was not an attack but I well considered response to a question that differed from your own. Also the bigger point though in my oppinion is we are not god so " Those are your ideas and not the Bible's" is a very real and true statement that extends to us all. While you quote and discuss through good intentions you or me or any one else are often are incorrect. We as fallible creatures are just that and until we cross over we will not know the truth we can only hope to do the best with the limited information we have and have faith that it will be enough. If it does or does not is beside the point all we can do is the best we can and to continue to to our best to treat our fellow man as we would like to be treated.
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Permalink Reply by asa c mcguire on
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also "That there is no proof of my understanding of the Bible". The key word here is MY. I do not doubt your intent but proof is just not there. Faith is. You have faith and that is a great and beautiful thing but it is just that faith. Proof is undeniable we as Christians have no proof only "13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." I think this sums it up quite nicely. But like I said this is my faith not proof of any thing except that I believe how I feel that I should. I happen to disagree with many of your observations but in the end it will not matter who is right or who is wrong and in my heaven or afterlife my Muslim family will be there with me.
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