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The Great Debate

"Iron sharpens iron." A place for men to impact each other by debate and exchange of ideas. This is a group where no ideas are off limits. If your motto is, "I never talk about politics or religion," this group is not for you. A "gym" for thinkers.

Members: 685
Latest Activity: 47 minutes ago

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Rev. Craig Donofrio

Fascinating Article - can't wait to get this book 59 Replies

OPINION: THE WEEKEND INTERVIEW - MARCH 6, 2010'They Need to Be Liberated From Their God' Mosab Hassan Yousef By MATTHEW KAMINSKI    Nashville, Tenn. 'I absolutely know that in anybody's eyes I was a…

Tagged: defector, Muslim, spy, terrorist, Convert

Started by Rev. Craig Donofrio. Last reply by Rev. Craig Donofrio 3 hours ago.

Mickey Bricks

Individual responsibility vs Societal regulation 21 Replies

At what point is it appropriate to draw the line? Many things are illegal and many things are things that the people may want or don't feel should be illegal. The question is what made these things i…

Started by Mickey Bricks. Last reply by Greg 3 hours ago.

Mickey Bricks

Respect my sovereignty 8 Replies

Is imperialism really wrong? Is it wrong for two countries or even two entities to war over land in this day and age. I'm sure with the delicate political ties it may be unwise but is it truly wrong.…

Started by Mickey Bricks. Last reply by Titus Techera 6 hours ago.

Nick Roberts

Abortion 228 Replies

Just wanted to see what all the manly men out there had to say about killin' babies. Comments?

Tagged: against, humanity, crimes, murder, Babies

Started by Nick Roberts. Last reply by Mitchell 6 hours ago.

Luis González

Limits on Free Speech 18 Replies

The following is an excerpt from the Wall Street Journal's article Supreme Court Wades Into Funeral Protests.  I am all for freedom of speech but I believe that there are things that are sacred for e…

Tagged: Court, Supreme, Speech, Freedom

Started by Luis González. Last reply by Titus Techera 6 hours ago.

Bob Patterson

Healthcare Reform... How Much Longer Can We Wait? 48 Replies

Bear with me, Gentlemen, as this is my first attempt at bringing up a topic here. :)   I was watching the local news tonight and saw two stories directly related to healthcare reform.   The first was…

Started by Bob Patterson. Last reply by Todd K 7 hours ago.

Luis González

Chat Roulette - The new Internet phenomenon 5 Replies

I just came across this article, and I was wondering what you all think about it.  I think it's insane although I must admit I have a slight curiosity to try it out... What do you gentlemen think?  …

Tagged: Internet, Roulette, Chat

Started by Luis González. Last reply by Drew Moore 1 day ago.

Deanna McGuire

Is it constitutionally sound to deny homosexuals the right or marriage or civil unions? 192 Replies

We've had many discussions that skirted this topic. The question is simple.

Tagged: rights, equal, unions, marriage, homosexual

Started by Deanna McGuire. Last reply by Mitchell 1 day ago.

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Nathan Mark Devore Comment by Nathan Mark Devore 21 hours ago
Or at least used a carbon
Moquary Comment by Moquary 1 day ago
They should have just xeroxed it...
Liam S. Comment by Liam S. 1 day ago
Herb, NICE! I love these old passages. Interesting how things can be miscopied, and errors found and corrected over time. Thanks for sharing.

Moquary - There is much debate over the identity of John of Patmos. Some argue that There were two or three Johns, others that there was just one John the Evangelist. There is an entire sub section of textual study devoted just to the authorship of the Johannine works. My use of the phrase "John of Patmos" simply indicates the location where it is believed a John (maybe the Evenagelist in exile, maybe another) was staying when he wrote the revelation. Justin Martyr, in the 2nd century, maintains that all 3 Johns (the gospel, the epistle and the revelation) were the same man. Modern scholars cannot agree.
Herb Munson Comment by Herb Munson 1 day ago
Interstingly, Irenaeus in the second century, a century before the fragment we're talking about here ... already knew of the 616 variation and discounted it as an error:

"Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end), - I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] - Adv. haer. 5.30

Tim McHyde says, "In this rather obscurely expressed passage, Irenaeus was proposing (even in the second century - a century BEFORE this oldest surviving copy!) that old, Greek copies of Revelation contained an error of copying in which the Greek letter xi with gematraic value 60 was wrongly copied into the Greek letter iota with number value 10."
Moquary Comment by Moquary 1 day ago
Ah... I see said the blind man as he picked up a hammer and saw.

John of Patmos and John the Evangelist are not the same person, though? Is any other biographical information known about the former?
Liam S. Comment by Liam S. 1 day ago
Moquary - the revelation of John of Patmos was probably written in 95 AD or so. But the oldest existing copies are fragments like these, dating from several hundred years later.
Kirby Gehman Comment by Kirby Gehman 1 day ago
664: The Neighbour of the Beast ?
Moquary Comment by Moquary 1 day ago
But John was writing the Gospel in the early 2nd century AD.
Liam S. Comment by Liam S. 1 day ago
@ Michael and Nathan. The papyrus fragment is here:

http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm - written by John in the late 3rd, early 4th century.
R J Costello Comment by R J Costello on March 8, 2010 at 5:00am
666
Just thought that I would note that the current number of members of this group is... 666
Spooky
 

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Deanna McGuire Topher White Herb Munson Liam S. Nathan Mark Devore LShieldes Nick Healy asa c mcguire Jamie John T Thull Will Dallas Gaytheist Dwane Lay Brendan Peter McVeigh Ray Daniels Joseph L. Rogers Paul_of_TX Rod Berger, PsyD The Normal Male Cody Fulling James! Kenneth Love Joe Murphy Todd K Rajesh Ghamandi Luis González Jack Neulist California Scott David Russell Adam Deffenbaugh Red Raven
 
 

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