Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on November 29, 2010 at 5:49pm

You need to check out Jared Diamond's books. Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed may cover some of this, but I can't say for sure.

Also, 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus touches on this, I believe. However, I don't think that there is any real evidence of an older civilization existing prior to what we would really consider to be Native Americans. These first settlers of the North American continent culturally evolved into Native Americans, they weren't displaced by them.

Permalink Reply by Jack Neulist on November 29, 2010 at 7:37pm

However, I don't think that there is any real evidence of an older civilization existing prior to what we would really consider to be Native Americans. These first settlers of the North American continent culturally evolved into Native Americans, they weren't displaced by them.

There is, and isn't. On the East Coast, the tribes we encountered were, by their own admission, relative newcomers. Some of their myths are intriguing to say the least. Then we have some unanswered questions regarding the Mound Builders and their predecessors. In the interior, especially the Southwest and California, there are trails and glyphs predating the native peoples we know of, and occasional artifacts discovered which don't fit current theories at all. There, too, the natives had legends of "others" who had been there before. I might be chasing shadows, but it is an intriguing thought. If it were true. . .

Either way, though, thanks Dallas, for the recommendations. Diamond's work I'm familiar with. That second title, though, I'll be looking into.

Permalink Reply by Tom Gunn on November 29, 2010 at 9:35pm

Check out the Book of Mormon. No, seriously. Just check it out.

Permalink Reply by Dallas the Phallus on November 30, 2010 at 9:56am

I listened to both of these titles on CD, and mostly when I was at work. Inevitably, that means I miss some of it here and there. Audiobooks are a good way to get through some titles, but not the best way of memorizing the content -- not compared to reading, anyhow. With 1491, I was more interested in the Central and South American sections, than I was in the North American sections.

Wikipedia gives a good summary of the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_....

the tribes we encountered were, by their own admission, relative newcomers. Some of their myths are intriguing to say the least.

While I agree that it is interesting, I wouldn't put much faith in these stories or myths. If I'm not mistaken, some Native Americans believed their gods made humans from maize. I suppose there can be some vague truths in legends, but most of it is just made up.

Permalink Reply by Michael D. Denny on November 29, 2010 at 11:09pm

There is strong evidence (Archeological evidence in the form of arrow technology) that early in the last ice age, Europeans ice-island hoped across the north Atlantic and had a presence for some time the Virginia/Maryland area and were apparently wiped out in the climate upheaval as the ice age ended.

Permalink Reply by Jack Neulist on November 29, 2010 at 11:51pm

That's the stuff I was asking for. Thanks Michael Denny. Hadn't heard of that. There a book or a journal, or is it common knowledge I've completely missed?

Permalink Reply by Native Son on November 30, 2010 at 10:13am

What you are running into is something quite common.
A people, moving into a new territory, will often encounter evidence that somebody else was there before them.
A lack of "sophistication" will results in the various "creation Stories" or tales of "The Old Ones".
I've been aware of the "Old Ones" stories since childhood (I didn't grow up in the Southwest.). It's not "New Age Kookery", but since virtually every very early people were in pre-literate societies, records are "thin on the ground."
Given the combination of European misinterpretation of "nativemysticism" and that the plague and smallpox spread faster than European explorers/settlers, most of the information about the Old Ones was lost before the first Spaniard, Englishman or Frenchman encountered the natives in the Americas.

Permalink Reply by Jack Neulist on December 11, 2010 at 2:38pm

A people, moving into a new territory, will often encounter evidence that somebody else was there before them. A lack of "sophistication" will results in the various "creation Stories" or tales of "The Old Ones".

 

But the people we're discussing we're supposedly blazing a trail, at least according to current historical dogma.

 

"every very early people were in pre-literate societies, records are "thin on the ground."...
Most of the information about the Old Ones was lost."

 

But if a grad student with little or no time for real research can dig up the road signs, surely qualified academics, somewhere, have been able to find something substantial. Evidence in the form of documents, of course not. But archaelogically. . .

Permalink Reply by Native Son on December 12, 2010 at 10:20am

Archaeology, like any other interpretive science, relies heavily upon the background, inclinations and prejudices of the observer.

Archaelogy also has the severe limitation of no one being able to identify or control a site - prior to the arrival of the trained archaeologist or talented amatuer.

Oftimes, archaeological sites have been plundered for either treasure or utilitarian metals and tools.  Note the big deal about King Tut's tomb was that it was the first one found that hadn't been plundered by grave robbers over the centuries.

You also have to account for earlier opinions of evidence.  There is a quotation from an early Spanish document (sorry don't have the citation) about Mayan Books.  Something along the [translated] lines of "We viewed several hundred books in the native tongue, but as they contained nothing but works of the Devil, we burned them."

 

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on December 14, 2010 at 11:25am

But the people we're discussing we're supposedly blazing a trail, at least according to current historical dogma.

Not necessarily, it really depends on which specific areas and tribes mythologies you are looking at. The DNA places many many of them as later (@ 15000, 12000) migrations, leaving a big gap from the first. 

 

Consider the oldest known settlement is in Chile, and dates around 14000. There was a lot of ground covered by those earlier migrations. 

Permalink Reply by t-train on December 10, 2010 at 1:17pm

I noticed this alot watching those ancient alien shows on the History channel.  I eventually reached the limits regarding those guys explaining everything away usiing aliens, but I did find the ancient artifacts they showed interesting.  Obviously, there were cultures (perhaps one common world culture) before much of recorded history.  I believe there was one large culture and language amongst early man, and the Great Flood wiped them out, and a whole new culture started again.

Permalink Reply by Jack Neulist on December 11, 2010 at 2:31pm

I try to distance myself from the whole alien thing. In fact, the ancient astronaut theory is largely responible for killing any chance of having rational, qualified individuals look at the evidence -- of which there's a considerable amount -- for the existence of older civilizations.

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