Here in Denmark, the church and state is together , it means that we pay church tax.
But this also means that the church adapts to the state and its worldly values.
Martin Luther King said that: The church should not be the governments megaphone but its conscience.
Do the Worldly maner also sneak slowly in your churches ?
The answer to your question is Yes, but that's the answer semper et ubique. When the Church ran Europe, it had its worldly aspects. Where there is a high wall of separation, as in the US, the Church has its worldly aspects. Where the State has some control over the Church, the Church has its worldly aspects. Even when the government is hostile to the Church, the Church had its worldly aspects.
The legislature should establish true religion.
The legislature should establish true religion.
Is this what you really mean? Can you explain further?
Good one Rebekah. You managed to get Liam and I to get together, hold hands, sing Kumbaya and agree with each other.
What do you mean by "legislature should establish true religion"?
Anglicans (like me) pray for our legislatures. We pray
MOST gracious God, we humbly beseech thee, as for the people of these United States in general, so especially for their Senate and Representatives in Congress assembled; that thou wouldest be pleased to direct and prosper all their consultations, to the advancement of thy glory, the good of thy Church, the safety, honour, and welfare of thy people; that all things may be so ordered and settled by their endeavours, upon the best and surest foundations, that peace and happiness, truth and justice, religion and piety, may be establish among us for all generations. These and all other necessaries, for them, for us, and thy whole Church, we humbly beg in the Name and mediation of Jesus Christ, our most blessed Lord and Saviour. Amen.
Or some variation. That's American, but the Prayer for Parliament in the Empire is almost exactly the same.
It gave me serious pause when I first read it in law school, 'cause, you know, the Constitution I was about to promise to "support" says "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion." I decided that whatever the Prayer Book means, it can't be contrary to the Constitution, 'cause some of the same people wrote them.
So, what does it mean? I take it to mean that the legislature should make laws that create an environment that fosters religion and piety. Our Founders believed that was best done without our federal legislature directly legislating about religion. I don't know if I agree with the Founders about the means (though if the US is to change its policy, it needs to amend the Constitution; I stick to my oath; and notably the Founders generally supported the Danish arrangement at the state level), but I agree with my Church.
Well, as I said, all I meant by the original line was the quoted text. I have more knowledge of the context, but it's just sixteenth century English. There's no magic code for interpreting it. Why don't you take a stab? What does it mean that "all things may be so ordered and settled by their endeavours, upon the best and surest foundations, that peace and happiness, truth and justice, religion and piety, may be establish among us for all generations"?
I don't know if I agree with the present means. I therefore don't know if I disagree with them. Your questions beg questions I'm not prepared to answer.
That is a fair interpretation.
My problem is that "establish" and "foundations" are words closely affiliated in meaning. I think that the prayer asks God that the endeavours of Congress would establish foundations of...Those good things describe the foundations Congress' endeavours are to establish.
We're probably both right. Liturgical texts are meant to have built-in ambiguity. The only reason I like mine better than yours is because it ruffles more feathers and I've been hanging with papist monarchists/theocrats too long.
While it's tempting to want to create a "Christian" society from the top down, we've got to remember that the New Testament church was born and lived under a very hostile government. And yet it thrived and within a couple of centuries had spread far from its starting place to most of the known world, and at all levels of society (Constantine's sister was a Christian convert). State religion tends to dilute the church's message - when the church's influence is top-down in society, rather than bottom-up, the church becomes worldly, it's message becomes weaker.
I'm a Brit, but I have respect for the American Constitution. Someone once quipped that the Constitution is there to guarantee "freedom of religion, not freedom from religion". Faith should certainly play a part of public life, but I don't think the state should ever go as far as endorsing one denomination over another, nor should the priest endorse one party over another.