Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Vern H on November 9, 2012 at 9:45am

Will

You're right on! All readers of this Blog out there have to read "the Harbinger" by Jonathan Cahn.  America, just like Isreal was a chosen nation by God, favored by God as long as we obeyed and remained in God (Read Jesus).  Israel suffered at the hands of the Assyrians,  a depotic anti-christian lot that God shall destroy.  But he used them to punish the wayward Israel.  Today, he's using their direct bloodline decendants from the missle east to draw into battle and punish america again. These people are Iraq, Iran, al qaeda, and any other 'terrorist' in the world that hates america.  God shall destroy all these anti-christian peoples.  America has moved away from God for 70 years already since the ban on prayer and christian sayings etc were removed from public places. NOW, we choose leadership that is not Christian, even a mormon has false beliefs - we had no God-like choice in this past election.  God has removed our favored protecte status and all the calamities we're seeing since 911 are allowed to punish.  Just like in Israel, God has bent over backwards waiting w/ a lot of grace for us backsliding nation to repent and return to him.  Whoa to us and whoa to the assyrians.  They are an enemy of God and now they live among us and lead us.

V

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on November 9, 2012 at 10:23am

Certainly we are a nation whose founders were steeped in the Judeo-Christian tradition, but they were also pretty clear about the fact that religion and government were not to intertwine too closely. Jefferson, Madison (especially in the federalist papers) and others were quite clear on this. Repeatedly. 

The Treaty of Tripoli, as signed by president John Adams (whom you quote above) and ratified by congress says pretty clearly:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

We cannot ignore that many of the founders were religious men, and certainly this shaped their philosophies and the laws and ideas they used to create the backbone of this country. But that is a different thing than "being a Christian nation."

So, I answer that I do not think we were ever a Christian nation - not at the founding, and not now, despite being a nation of mostly Christians. Especially if the being a Christian nation means believing anything about its population like Vern's statements suggest - I do not think the founders shared his particular take on Christianity. 

Permalink Reply by Nick H on November 9, 2012 at 10:27am

You're wasting your time. But thanks for the input about the Treaty of Tripoli, that was informative.

Permalink Reply by Mike M. on November 25, 2012 at 1:47pm

As our nation is built solely on our cultural values, rather than on any sort of ethnic grounds, and as Christianity is one of the primary influences of the American culture, I think that it's reasonable to call this a Christian nation.  That doesn't, however, mean that we have a Christian state... we never have and, Deo volente, we never will.

Permalink Reply by Native Son on November 9, 2012 at 10:36am

My two cents.  A big part of the first amendment revolves around the distaste for an "official, government sanctioned church".  The British government had an official church, and the nascent United States wished to preserve the traditional American freedom to choose a form of worship without either requiring obesience to an official church or a church tax.

As to Jefferson's remarks in the Tripoli Treaty, that's there to emphasize that any response to violations of the Treaty were not going to be based on religious considerations.  It was also there to remove one of the traditional "Musselmen" causus belli.

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on November 9, 2012 at 10:42am

I agree - the Treaty of Tripoli is not the only piece of evidence though - just one that spells it out quite nicely. We can argue that they didn't mean what they wrote in it (or that it was only there to appease the audience), but we cannot know original intent for certain. I have to assume that they mean what they ratified and signed. 

 

Permalink Reply by Rebekah on November 9, 2012 at 1:11pm

Of course, the Constitution only applied to prevent a federal, American church. The States continued to sponsor churches into the mid-19th century, and stopped at the request of the churches, and not as a result of a law suit or other constitutional crisis.

Permalink Reply by Dale K on November 9, 2012 at 12:55pm

Liam is correct and we have to be VERY careful not to adopt an intolerant attitude towards those who are religious, but just don't believe like we do.

I think I understand what you're getting at. The problem however is not one of political correctness, but practicality. When our Constitution was being drawn up, we came perilously close to having an official state religion - with a different one in each state. It was for this reason that our religious freedom was founded. All or almost all of the signers were deeply 'religious' men, even though Thomas Jefferson (for example) was said to be a deist and not a Christian. That is why the Bill of Rights, the Preamble and the Constitution all allude to the Divine in the form of the Creator or the Father and not Jesus Christ, Son of God.

It was for this reason that the Jewish people felt at ease living among Christians, especially during the horror of Nazi Germany. And the Jewish people are well aware of that acceptance.

The problem is: when we say 'We are a Christian nation' we are proclaiming to be a nation of Christians only - and one that only tolerates like minded people. This is more like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan than the United States. Properly speaking, we are a nation "of Christians" with a rich history built on Christianity.

Today, the greater problem is that Islam takes advantage of our freedoms, setting up 80 mosques in Houston alone, and beheading infidel Christians in their own countries.

It is for that reason, i favor a 'reciprocal foreign policy' where we treat YOUR immigrants the same as Americans are treated in your home country. But... that's an argument for another forum!

Permalink Reply by Vern H on November 9, 2012 at 1:14pm

Nation of 'christians' is a better way to put it.  Got to be careful not to disobey God.

Permalink Reply by Tim Zenchenko on November 9, 2012 at 1:18pm

It is for that reason, i favor a 'reciprocal foreign policy' where we treat YOUR immigrants the same as Americans are treated in your home country.

care to elaborate, and explain how this is supported by the Christian worldview? 'cause i'm very interested.

Permalink Reply by Dale K on November 9, 2012 at 1:53pm

I apologize and I realize I should not have mentioned that because it combines two different views: one as an individual and the other as a nation. Most people will get hung up and say we should do one and the same.
You're right, that is a difficult Christian worldview. The only way I can answer that is in the Ten Commandments where it says "Thou shalt not kill." Compare that to the instruction, ".an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Keep in mind that God told the people many times to go to war (killing). The answer is that the commandment against murder was given to us as individuals. (As individuals, we do not have that right) The call to war and an edict for punishment was given NOT to individuals, but to all of us collectively as the 'state.' That is why a Christian who sits on a jury to sentence a man to death is NOT guilty of murder. He is acting with others in agreement, in the capacity of the 'state' and not as a person.
While I am bound by the Golden Rule to treat my Muslim neighbor in Christ's love, Christians who must determine foreign policy must consider national safety and security above all else. If we didn't do that, we would be a totally pacifist nation, with no Christians in the military; and no Christian national leaders.

Permalink Reply by Nick H on November 10, 2012 at 2:27pm

Jesus told us to "not to resist an evildoer. On the contrary, whoever slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well" (Matthew 5:39)l, "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44), and "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."(8:7).

These fly in the face of some of the OT commands such as an eye for an eye and since we are Christians and not Jews surely Christ's commands overrule them?

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