Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Will on February 9, 2013 at 9:47am

There's an assumption here that if someone professes allegiance to a beleif system, she, or he, follows it 100%.

According to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who grew up in Islam, most of her people had never read the Koran, even in translation (because a translated Koran just isn't a Koran), didn't know what was in the faith, and thereby wouldn't have been following the objectionable bits (at least, not for that reason).  She's no apologist for Islam:  she's an ex-Muslim who co-wrote the film Submission that got Theo van Gogh killed by an Islamic assasin who left a note on his chest saying Ayaan, you're next.

It's an interesting question whether a belief system makes you better or worse.  But it doesn't completely rewrite your mind, especially if you don't know what's in it.  I also am disturbed by those parts of the Koran that urge adherents to "smite the necks" (decapitate?) non-Muslims, &c., but I do not thereby assume that every Muslim is ready to kill me.  Some, yes.  But not my major who wants to find a comfortable middle-class existence while doing enough to keep Allah happy -- or the teen who's into music and clothes and boys and keeping her parents off her back -- &c. 

 

Permalink Reply by Stephen Washington on February 9, 2013 at 6:16am

1. She is untrustworthy because the belief system which she adheres to is untrustworthy.  Or do you stroll through the dregs of large cities like LA or Chicago, alone and unarmed, with full faith and confidence that no harm will come to you?  No?  I guess that makes you prejudiced, as well, right?

We as human beings have the ability to make judgements based on available knowledge.  The fact that we have this higher intellect is not something we should actively try to suppress, as you, Liam, and LShieldes seem to think.

2. I do not know if she is "pretty."  That is a highly subjective statement which holds no stock whatsoever, even if a photo of her had been posted.  That she is Muslim, however, conveys a great deal of objective facts, though her interpretation of Islam may differ from, say, Ruhollah Khomeini.

Again, we have the cognitive ability to make a judgement call on her trustworthiness based on the religion she claims to adhere to, and we can derive from the teachings of that religion how far we should trust her.  You seem to be more caught up on how unfair it is to judge someone based on the belief structure they claim to live by, rather than accepting the fact that by claiming that belief structure, she has announced that she is untrustworthy.

If a man claims to have homicidal thoughts and desires, you would call it prejudice to report him to the police as a suspect when his neighbor ends up murdered.

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on February 9, 2013 at 4:39pm

I live in Chicago. I take precautions in a neighborhood known for violence, based on historical data. I do not assume that every person who lives in those neighborhoods, however, is prone to that violence. If someone says to me, I live in Englewood, a neighborhood with more murders per capita than any other in the city, I don't trust them less, or worry about my own life merely because I am around them.

 

That leap to pre-judging all individuals who meet what is, in this case, an extremely broad criteria, is what is troubling.

 

You've gone from assumed innocent and having to prove a crime, to assumed guilty and having to prove innocence. And THAT is why we are saying you are prejudiced.

 

"rather than accepting the fact that by claiming that belief structure, she has announced that she is untrustworthy."

 

I do not believe for a moment that this is a fact. This is your assertion, based on what you believe it means to be muslim. Not what any given muslim believes it means to be one. Don't decide for others what their faith means to them, or requires of them.

 

As Will eloquently stated, many people do not know what their "belief structure" really says about many things, much less adhere 100% to what it does. This is true of all faiths, and frankly, most all faiths have troubling aspects of them - especially if taken 100% literally and lived as such.

 

Stating you are muslim does not equal an intent to lie to a non-muslim. And the "objective facts" you claim to derive from her statement, are anything but.

Permalink Reply by Stephen Washington on February 10, 2013 at 1:29am

I see this as a failure on your part to understand what Islam truly entails.  If an individual doesn't know what their religion teaches, that's their problem.

But a claim to be Muslim is a claim to be deceitful, whether the person making the claim realizes it or not.

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on February 10, 2013 at 3:00am

I'm quite familiar with Islam, and with the two types of lying permitted in the qu'ran and hadiths (kitman and taqiyya) as well as the circumstances under which they are permissible.  

They are not significantly different than writings from the Old Testament where lying is ordered by God, in order to advance his causes, or protect the individuals. I may not trust implicitly the statements by a government of an Islamist republic, but this does not mean that I'm going to automatically distrust every individual muslim I meet. 

I see your inability to draw a distinction between what the texts of a religion say, and what that means for the individuals who follow it (especially when viewed as an outsider - again, don't tell other people what their religion requires of them, or means), a failing on your part. Your inability to understand that the world is not black and white, that there are shades of grey, contradictions and subtleties - especially when dealing with religions - does not speak well of you. Frankly, if I were to use your criteria, I don't think I would trust anyone who claimed to believe ANY religion - a position which is clearly untenable and unreasonable. 

Permalink Reply by LShieldes on February 10, 2013 at 3:06am

Love, unconditionally is for idiots

Permalink Reply by Jack Bauer on February 10, 2013 at 3:54pm

I carry a weapon most everywhere.  Good neighborhoods and bad.  Poor neighborhoods and rich.  Small town.  Big city.  Everywhere.  That's not prejudice, its precaution.

I don't figure every person in a high crime area is a criminal, or every person in a low crime area is not.  I'm just prepared to shoot anybody in any area that proves to be.

And, generally, I don't trust anybody that hasn't proven trustworthy.  I wouldn't trust her at the outset.  I wouldn't trust you, either.  I'm just not the trusting type.  Again, that's not prejudice ... I treat everybody with the same initial distrust.

She sounds like she's proven herself to him.  If he's decided he trusts her, that's good enough for me.  I don't know her as well as he does.  You're drawing distinctions that may not exist based on incomplete information, at best.  That's prejudice.

Like I've said, prejudice can be justified.  You find it justified.  Fine.  That's your call to make -- you have the right to your prejudices.  But ... its still prejudice.  No need to deceive yourself about your own beliefs.  Own up to it ... and, if you find it justified, commit to it.

JB

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on February 9, 2013 at 12:01am

+1000

Permalink Reply by Maximilian Hermann Reese on February 8, 2013 at 2:56am

Hi Stephen, thanks for your interest but it's not about trusting her as a person. I don't know whether a relationship between me as a real christian and her as something like ....well... a muslim traditionalist woul work. An other problem is my age. I wanted to be unbound for a while, go to other countries etc.
So it's not a problem of race as you might thought. Excuse my french but German and Europeans girls in general are sluts compared to those Turkish ones.

Permalink Reply by Maximilian Hermann Reese on February 8, 2013 at 2:57am

* I'm talkin' bout the average girl. For sure there are some exceptions

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on February 8, 2013 at 2:30am

The old testament is not particularly happy with marrying those of different faiths (see Deut 7 - big surprise). But with that said, Jewish and Christian tradition is ok with it if they convert first, so God will recognize the marriage.

 

From the standpoint of being friends with, and even dating a non-believer, the bible in general (even Paul) wouldn't really have an issue overall. 

 

Dating seriously would require a discussion by the two of you. Common advice would indicate:

1. The Christian should really sit down and discuss and compare their beliefs. If the other person is against Christianity, then I think it may be best to remain friends.
2. Or, if the person is willing to follow God, then perhaps things can work out over time.

 

That's what scripture would indicate anyway. It's possible that she is amenable to conversion if she is contemplating a life with you, and is not particularly religious in her parents faith. You won't know until you talk about it. 

 

Personally, If you like her, and are honest with yourself, you at least owe her the conversation. There is no reason to kill a relationship before it has begun over this.

Permalink Reply by Maximilian Hermann Reese on February 8, 2013 at 3:08am

Well we talked about what I believe in and she seems to be quite liberal but thats not what I need. That would be okay for the person that regards christianity as a nice idea of for community living......yyaaaaawn....(that churchgoing nonbeliver type of guy - hope you get my point, my english skills again) but as I said I'm a real christian that thinks of Jesus as the only way of salvation so it's not what I want. I don't need a liberal partner but I can't force her to accept JHWH as her god. So I really don't know what to do. She would recognize it if I tried to stop that growin relationship at soe point and that would be more than awkward and not very christian at all.

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