Can a spiritually unawakened man truly master the art of manliness?!

Personally, I think the root of being a manly man is to have pure morals. Morals, however, have to come outside of this space-time continium. They are given by a pure loving God, thus, Morals are a reflection of Him, making them pure unchangable constant.
The questions thats arise are:
Can a man adopt them, practise them, and yet be disconected from God?
Will that behavior be genuine?
Will he feel compeled to live by Godly given high morals, without coming to Christ
first?

I have my answer, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Maybe we can help clarify why this is not possible, simply because many people need to feel God's peace and mastering the Art of Manliness is the fruit from all that.

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Replies to This Discussion

Well... Genghis Khan was manly, and was a monster.  In fact, without some of the virtues we associate with manliness (leadership, perseverance), no one can be an effective monster:  you have to have drive and efficiency to work great evil as well as to work great good.

So:  an unregenerate, horrific monster can be manly.  Just not the kind of manly we need.

In my opinion, being manly is a mostly amoral question. You're either good at being a man, or you're not. It's more about capability, strength, courage, respect, etc. Whether you're a 'good man' is a separate question.

Reducing things to fiction, for simplicity, it's not hard to think of loosely moral, amoral, or outright immoral characters that are unquestionably 'manly'. Darth Vader. Walter White. James Bond. Bruce Wayne. Michael Corleone. Sherlock Holmes. Tyler Durden. Dirty Harry.

Historically, there's everybody from Blackbeard to John Dillinger to Wyatt Earp.
Biblically, there are a lot of really messed-up characters that are considered manly. David ... the king who sent a soldier to die in battle so he could bang his wife. Yikes.

I agree with you that morality is static, objective, constant, and of God. I don't think men can be moral without God ... and, I don't think truly "pure morals" are possibility for any man, save one, on this side of eternity. Total depravity.

But, I don't think pure morals are a prerequisite to manliness. And, I don't think there's really a Biblical case to make for it, either. Christ was the model. But, there are a lot of paragons throughout the Bible that failed. Repeatedly. Spectacularly. And were still not only men ... but men of God.

JB

Personally, I think the root of being a manly man is to have pure morals.

I disagree with this. I agree with Jack. He's explained good man VS good at being a man several times on AoM and I agree with his interpretation.

Morals, however, have to come outside of this space-time continium. They are given by a pure loving God,

I agree that morals can come from religion but I disagree that they can only come from religion.


Can a man adopt them, practise them, and yet be disconected from God?

Yes. A person can be good and moral but not believe at all or believe in something other than the Christian god. The current Pope of the Roma Catholic Church has been clear: good atheists are good people. He's also implied that it's better to be a good atheist than a bad, hypocritical Catholic. (I know he doesn't represent all of Christianity but it nonetheless says volumes.)

Will that behavior be genuine?

It will if they have genuinely good, altruistic intentions.


Will he feel compeled to live by Godly given high morals, without coming to Christ
first?

Not necessarily. There are plenty of people who are compelled to do good and live moral lives without believing in any deity, or while believing in something other than the Christian God.

Some caveats.  God is not a religion.  This makes a difference.  Religion didn't and couldn't create the universe, construct us to have a moral sense, send a Son to save us, etc.  So when we ask whether morals come from God, that's a separate question of whether they come from a religion.

I don't think they come exactly, or only, from outside the universe.  At least, "the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."  That is, sure, ultimately it comes from God like everything else.

This may also have an effect on the question of being moral but godless.  You can be alive but godless, though life comes from God.  But it may not be a stable situation.  (Or maybe there's a reason morality is more dependent than life is.)

"Some caveats.  God is not a religion.  This makes a difference.  Religion didn't and couldn't create the universe, construct us to have a moral sense, send a Son to save us, etc.  So when we ask whether morals come from God, that's a separate question of whether they come from a religion."

Understood. I was using the term to refer to any/all gods, deities and/or supernatural beings and concepts generally rather than God, the god of the Christians, specifically.

"This may also have an effect on the question of being moral but godless.  You can be alive but godless, though life comes from God.  But it may not be a stable situation.  (Or maybe there's a reason morality is more dependent than life is.)"

Brings up a few interesting questions. Can one be alive and/or moral but godless?  Can one be alive and/or moral and simply not be aware that they are with god?

This thread went places.

This is tricky, indeed.  In your premise, you condemn all non-Christian men into a limbo of immorality, at worst, and amorality, at best.

If morality is strictly defined in Christian terms, then nobody other than Christians can be moral.  If, however, morality is expressed and defined by behavior, then multitudes of men, including those who think they are Christians, but may not actually be Christians, are quite capable of truly moral behavior from a genuine, manly desire.

Is Christianity only a system of morality?  I was raised in a church which certainly believed that.

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