Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Peyton Quinn on March 13, 2012 at 12:16pm

Man created gods in his own human image. That includes all human faults, such as expectations, anger, jealousy, vengeance , murder, adultery etc, but also the concepts of love and mercy. Most every religion has these elements in its god or gods.

Of course these leads to the basic contradiction once a god or gods are personified into an actual 'being". The basics come first but they list is endless: 1- if a god is supposed to be all powerful, then he or she is responsible for everything all good and evil, children being born deformed, cholera , small pox etc.

This leads to 'cognitive dissonance' about one's gods. What is their true nature?  So the doctrines develop to defray or reduce this cognitive dissonance through a philosophy ,chant or doctrine..

These  come in two basic categories 1- WE can't know gods will or ways or purpose as we are only mortal sinners 2- God is not responsible for Evil, disease, etc mankind alone is as god is perfect in all ways.

Now mathematically these positions are non-squinter and thus self -contradicting. But any religion that has a god or gods as 'beings' faces this dilemma and must try to resolve it somehow.

Generally there is a class of priests or 'defenders of the faith' that interpret god's laws etc This often develops into the casting of 'vengeful god' that is to be feared if one transgresses against that god and thus the 'priests' word and interpretation of that word. 

There are only two basic ways to rule a society, by hope or by fear. It is the same with religions and individuals too for that matter.

Some of the major religions use both 'fear and hope'. This manifests itself in some dreadful punishment for disobeying or angering the gods,  often it is some eternal and painful situation such as Hell, Vishnu, separation from life, god or being eaten by beats or birds etc . Thus the fear if you transgress against god's word.

The ' hope' is most often sold in the form of a ‘afterlife ‘of some sort if you follow the rules. This afterlife can range from being carnal as in Islam for the Mujahadeen warrior fighting and dying to stop the infidel. Or in Christianity where it is less defined but not carnal, it is most often cast as a blissful union with god.

 

Once god is personfied into a 'being' in nay relgion there is the paradox, expectaions' how can god have expectations when he knows and has caused all things that 'will happen to happen'. And id that being can not or does not casue all to happen, then how can it be a god?

Some religions escape the paradox by not personifying or creating a god being in the image of man or woman. Buddhism is like this. There is only a "process' not a god being, but all wisdom and the ‘escape from suffering’ is found in seeing and becoming aligned and in congruence to that Great Process.

In this philosophy the key concept is the impermanent nature of all things and seeing one’s path or place in the great procees.

 

Permalink Reply by Clint Connolly on March 13, 2012 at 4:33pm

This group is "Christian" men - you can post a non-Christian post but it is misplaced here.

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on March 14, 2012 at 8:36pm

I would have to disagree with you on this...
The novel "The Shack" is promoted by many professing christians and churches...
While I personally find the ideas promoted in the book to be dangerously heretical and those who agree with its conclusions to be lukewarm or apostate, the quote from "The Shack" does deal with the concept of the Trinity, albeit in a way that syncretizes "goddess" theology with Christianity...

Or perhaps you object to Peyton Quinn's explaination of his world view...? It is really not all that different from the ideas being promoted by some Liberal Catholic writers, or the New Tolerance being promoted by the Ecumenical movement...

I think it is import to allow folks to feel free to come here and share their thoughts without being told to take their ideas elsewhere, as long as they are being respectful... this provides Christians the opportunity to learn how worldly people and post-modernists think so that we can be faithful witnesses to the Gospel, with the hope that through apologetics we can lead them to accept Christ.

Permalink Reply by Clint Connolly on April 18, 2012 at 7:57am

Hey Elliott,

Somehow I missed this post until today.  I agree with you about The Shack.

And I agree with you in general about the rest with one caveat, "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him."

When someone starts a discussion in a way that shows great folly, sometimes the best thing is not to answer them.

This is sort of like the joke about the Net being like the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded. 

So there's a point at which arguing doesn't help anyone - a closed mouth gathers no feet (for both parties of a conversation). 

Another verse along these lines is "Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.  Let your speech always be with grace as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person."

There's a point at which arguing with a person just bolsters their pride and actually drives them farther from the Truth.  I've had these "intellectual" conversations a million times.  In scripture we see that Paul didn't argue with them - he was a great theologian and logician and used those skills but was determined to know nothing among the unbelievers except Christ and Him crucified. 

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on April 18, 2012 at 10:27am

You know Clint, you are absolutely right... you bring up some excellent points that I will take to heart... there's definitely a time for Proverbs 26:4... like when someone uses an Ad Hominem or a Red Herring or is just trying to "get my goat"... Then there is the very next verse:

Proverbs 26:5... "Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit." 

I especially appreciate the irony of quoting Proverbs 26:4... it's a response that is a non-response, & lets the other guy know that I am done...

I now realize that I jumped into posting in this Group somewhat prematurely... in that I hadn't taken the time yet to read through all of the prior Discussions and Comments... I have since gone back and read many of the earlier threads, & I now understand your perspective & why you said what you said... that for some folks, it just ends up hijacking the conversation and feeds their own conceit...

I have only been walking with the Lord for 32 months, and I am still learning the art of discernment when it comes to Apologetics... I like to use the intellectual arguments as starters, and then tack to starboard with the emotional appeal if it gets too far from shore... However, The Cross is foolishness to the World; and after sharing the Truth, many times Jesus just let them walk away shaking their heads...

Also, having read some folks' comments in other Groups & Discussions, I have a clearer insight into their psyche & heart, and that helps me to know the difference between a man eager to learn the Truth, itching for a fight, or someone who just likes to hear the sound of their own voice... 

One last point... which I mentioned in another Discussion... The guy on the other podium is not my intended audience, but a fellow actor on the stage... I write this for the benefit of the untold number of folks who may be listening in, but don't feel the call to comment for one reason or another... By engaging a New Ager or a California Buddhist with Christian Apologetics and quoting Scripture, it has the potential to edify their own Faith... or just may be the instrument or catalyst for the Holy Spirit to do a miracle in their heart and bring them to believe in Jesus Christ...

Permalink Reply by Clint Connolly on May 2, 2012 at 10:13am

Hey Elliot,

Well, I've been a Christian for as much as 20 years and I am constantly wrestling with what you've said here.

I like to hear my own voice, but I hope and pray that's not my primary motivation - but I know when I'm not listening to The Father's voice, I tend to listen to my own and like the sound of mine more and His less. 

I am someone who even now tends to totter between belief and unbelief.  My faith has never laid peacefully with me, making me believe I am like a new believer - sometimes I think that's good, other times I think it is very bad, "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives to all generously and without reproach and it will be given to him but he must ask in faith without any doubting for the one who doubts is like the serf of the sea driven and tossed by the wind - that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways."

When did you become a Christian?  You know, in many ways your faith is a small flame, you should protect it.

Also what you've said in your post is something I've noticed a lot.  In my old atheistic egalitarian way of thinking I tend to think that good preaching and discussion always softens hearts to the gospel but that's not true - scripture says that the truth unites and divides.  It hardens some and softens others at the exact same time - we see this with Christ and was he in intemperate man?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!  So we should look to the discernment he shows in how he deals with believers and unbelievers alike. 

That is a lifelong study, brother.   If God is continuing to teach you, you will always feel like and know you have an infinitely long way to go.

 

BTW, what church are you in - care to give your testimony?  I always find that encouraging. 

Also, always guard your heart when engaging with others - everyone does, whether they are self-proclaimed open-minders or not - scriptures says we are like sheep among the wolves but should be cunning as serpents innocent as doves.

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on May 2, 2012 at 11:39am

Thank you for this, Clint...

You bring up some authentic issues that I think we all struggle with... the older I get, the more I realize that I must work smarter, nit harder, in order to get the job done... this is just as true for edification & witnessing as well... 

I got saved 2 & 1/2 years ago, & when I gave my life to Christ, I landed running... I realized that if I am going to be a fool for Jesus, I'm going to get serious about it...! 

I have been seeking Truth my whole life, looking for God everywhere but in Jesus Christ... Believe me when I say that I did not want to believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, or that He is the ONLY way to the Truth, Light & Life... the "political correctness" indoctrination in school caused me to reject the exclusivity of Christ Jesus...
I was turned off of Christ by the easy-believism & hypocrisy of modern Churchianity, & the violent past of Catholicism & Protestantism... so I bought into the "Liberal/progressive" lie that all Religions are the same...
I searched through various schools of philosophy, from Plato to Ken Wilber... until I realized that moral relativism & situational ethics were just sophisticated forms of vanity and intellectual elitism...
I researched various forms of scientific thought, even astrophysics & quantum mechanics... until I realized it was an endless quest in reductionist materialism...
I became a political & environmental activist in order to "change the world!"... until I realized that secular humanism was just atheistic dominionism, and I was an unwitting tool of the globalist elites who manipulate ALL of the various ideological camps across the political spectrum through the Hegelian Dialectic (Problem -> Reaction -> Solution)...
So I began my theological search for spiritual understanding, which led me on a path through the Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, paganism, New Ageism & Hebrew Roots... until I realized that syncretism, eclecticism, & pantheism were just ways of trying to make God in my own image...
I became enthralled with gnosticism, hermeticism, mysticism, shamanism, Cabalism, secret societies & the occult... until I realized that these paths were just an ego trip & blinded me with pride...

I began to read the KJV Bible in order to prove the Christians wrong... (For I had "secret knowledge" that they didn't know!)...

only to be confounded by the immutable, unbreakable, unshakeable Truth that is the miraculous Birth, death, & resurrection of Jesus Christ... & I couldn't come up with any reasonable explanation to dismiss it away...

Finally, after I had exhausted every possible "alternative" to the Truth, I humbly realized & recognized that Jesus Christ is God incarnate & I asked Jesus to be my Lord & Savior... My whole life has changed... I now study the scriptures & listen to on-line sermons for daily guidance in my life... I feel like I have had the scales removed from my eyes & cobwebs from my conscience... I feel like my life has gone from black & white into a full-spectrum kaleidoscope of light... Praise the Lord...!

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on May 2, 2012 at 12:01pm

Once I became a Christian, I took my time researching the various denominations & church history... this led me to various Discernment & Watchman ministries on the internet that expose the various cults and charismatic charlatans, as well as the new age bible versions...

Using the Law of Non-contradiction & the King James Bible as my guides, I studied the Biblical description of the early NT church, and then tried to find a church that held true to the Bible... Catholicism, E.Orthodoxy, Episcopalian, Reform, Methodist & Lutheran didn't fit the criteria, so that left me with Presbyterian & Baptist... 

So then I tried to find a local church that still followed the "old paths" and used the KJV... It took nearly a year, but I eventually found an Independent Baptist church 20 minutes from my house... I got baptized on March 6th, 2011...

We have a beautiful building, a private school, & have various conferences & events... I am the librarian & host a monthly movie night showing documentaries & movies...

Our pastor planted this church in the gospel-scarce PNW 26 years ago, and with strong & steady  growth, his eldest son took a third of the congregation to plant a new church on the other end of the valley two years ago...

Permalink Reply by Clint Connolly on May 2, 2012 at 3:41pm

Well, Elliot, you definitely sound a lot like me.

Have you ever read Authority by Martin Lloyd Jones - it's excellent.  I may dig up my copy and put my favorite quotes up.

The biggest difference is that I didn't study a whole ton of things before I was smacked in the face with my own sin and the fact that you have to make a choice at some point.

But that thing about picking a church - man - very true - it's the local way to go about it - but it doesn't really work does it?

The way I described it was that I held up the book of Acts compared it to what I thought I was seeing about the church.

I was at a church for 12 years until four years ago when I sort of realized for the first time that outward confession is a huge part of Christianity - you can't have repentance and faith without it.

Confession and repentance are very unpopular these days - if they were ever not. 

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on May 3, 2012 at 1:05am

The book sounds interesting... go ahead & put up some quotes from it... I think we should start a "favorite christian quotes" discussion thread so we can post our favorite paragraphs from commentaries...

Are you no longer with a local assembly...? I believe that it is better to be in a weak church than no church, but it is better to be in no church than a bad church...

My church has the major issues down good, but there are several peripheral issues (501c3, gold-fringe flag, etc) that I am educating the pastor about in hopes of getting that changed... They do teach a pre-trib rapture at my church, which I believe in a post-trib & pre-wrath scenario as more biblically sound, but it is not something to break fellowship over...

I see church as what I can do for others, how the Lord can use me in the service of the lives of the folks at church... if the body is sick in some way, if a brother is struggling with an issue, I try to diagnose the problem & give the right heart medicine for the occasion...

However, I don't limit my fellowship with folks at the local church... I still interact with my secular & new ager friends, & I still go to music festivals & Rainbow gatherings where I meet folks who need Christ....   So I believe that "church" is wherever 2 or more people gather in Jesus' name... especially at 7000 ft in the Rocky mountain alpine meadows...

Permalink Reply by Bryan Maloney on April 5, 2012 at 10:43am

When we say that God is good, we must also say that God is not good, for the "good" of which we can speak is mere human goodness. This is the heart of apophatic ("negative") theology, which is concerned with our limitations on understanding God. The heirs of the Latin church (Roman Catholics and 100% of all protestants, evangelicals, etc.) usually only know "cataphatic" theology ("positive theology") which enumerates the attributes of God.

But God is beyond mortal attribution, and the East remembers this. Thus, we know that, just as much as there is a "Divine Light" that illuminates the world, there is a "Divine Darkness" through which our vision can never pierce. God is not in the image of a man. God IS. Within time, God became a human in addition to remaining God, but His humanity is not the sum of His being. It does not define nor limit Him.

God is without time and within time. God is within understanding and without understanding.

How good is your ability to directly comprehend the infinite? I do not mean putting a label on it and pretending to comprehend it when all you actually comprehend is the little doodle you made of it? If you are human, your ability to comprehend the infinite is pretty much diddly.

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on March 13, 2012 at 12:54pm

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:8 KJV

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