Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Chuck Neal on March 2, 2013 at 9:18am

I do think most of it is about being assertive, not necessarily "bad". Our modern world has watered down things that were traditionally considered manly. We have left the "good guy" stuck between trying to be the man in the relationship but being told to back the testosterone off and be sensitive. It is a confusing line to walk and no 2 women will agree on where that line is. How do you stay politically correct and not look like a chauvinistic pig, while still being manly and assertive?

While we men have been taught to be more in touch with our feelings, listen better, etc we have also lost some of the take charge drive to make decisions. It took me years of being married to finally realize that when my wife asked where I wanted to go out for dinner, she was not asking me to have a discussion with her, she really wanted me to take charge and decide. If she disagreed with the decision we would of course talk it over and pick something else, but there is comfort in knowing that we can take charge and remove the need for all these decisions.

The "bad guy" persona tends to be an extreme of the take charge guy. Not only does he do what he wants, but he doesn't even care about the rules. There is some excitement there in the wild untamed streak in him, but typically it comes with the drawbacks of a lot of other negative character traits as well. These men tend to be selfish, more easily hurt those that love them, and the thrill comes with a lot of emotional baggage. There are cases where a woman (or younger girl) may go for the bad boy out of rebelliousness, but in my opinion, it typically stems from just wanting a man who will be assertive, take charge and not put the burden of all decisions on her. They see confidence, and confidence is sexy.

So try just being assertive. Rather than open ended questions, be specific. Instead of "Do you want to go eat somewhere?" try "Lets go to that steak house across town we both enjoyed last time." This shows a take charge attitude and that you remember she liked the place. Subtle difference, but one that will be noticed.

This also depends on the woman, but my wife loves it when I order for her. She picks what she wants, unless it is a place we go often and I already know what she wants to order, but I tell the waitress. It shows I am listening to her but also that I am taking care of her.

You shouldn't be cold, or stop being thoughtful. Just lay out a plan for the evening, show you are prepared, but be ready to adapt if you pick something she doesn't want to do. Trust your instincts and don't be apologetic. You may also find that taking on a lot of the small decisions and stepping up also boosts your confidence.

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Permalink Reply by Will on March 2, 2013 at 11:02am

Periodically we discuss this.  General consensus is:  the bad guys appear confident, and that's attractive.  Unfortunately, they're also guys who'll treat 'em bad.  Best is a good man with confidence.

How to get it:  deep subject.  Maybe a stab later.

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Permalink Reply by Jack Bauer on March 2, 2013 at 12:37pm

Women want a good man with an edge ... a guy that is good, but still rough enough that they're not over-refined, or sensitive, or girly, or weak, or meek, or timid, etc.  When they can't find both good and an edge ... many will choose edge over good, and end-up with a bad guy with strength rather than a good man that's weak.

Women overplay how much they like sensitive men.  They may want to like them.  But most don't actually want to date one.

JB

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Permalink Reply by Brian W. Barrett on March 2, 2013 at 2:59pm

Women overplay how much they like sensitive men.  They may want to like them.  But most don't actually want to date one.

Pardon the crudeness, but that can be read as:

Women want a man. . . because they already have a pussy.

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Permalink Reply by Shane on March 2, 2013 at 3:25pm

Women overplay how much they like sensitive men.  They may want to like them.  But most don't actually want to date one.

I think a lot of men overplayed this.  Especially those in the late 80's/early 90's era.  Pretty much the demographic this site was built for.  Like Brian said, they ended up being pussies.  And even though men were trying to become what women wanted, more sensitive, women didn't even understand what they were asking for, and men didn't understand how to do it.  So, men ended up acting like women.

In my opinion, a lot of the backlash against the "macho" man created by the 70's/80's version of feminism (second or third wave depending on how you count suffragists) was in part due to the psychological impact of the fathers of the 50's/60's who were basically a generation of PTSD riddled war vets.  Trying to handle their demons they became aloof and distant and struggled to connect with their children on an emotional level.

I believe, women mistook this generational struggle for inner peace as "traditional patriarchal mindset" and struck out against it.  Causing the boys who never connected with their fathers, but also knew "something was wrong" with the way things were, to follow in the overreaction.

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Permalink Reply by StaggerLee on March 2, 2013 at 12:54pm

Excitement.

Improving self esteem depends on where you are starting from. General rule, start small and build a chain of successes while refusing to surrender when failure strikes (that is intentionally when and not if; it happens to the best of us). Most people fail at esteem building because they go after the whole enchilada at once.

Appearances are for phonies. Look determined because you are determined. Find something that means something to you and stick with it.

Cold men are typically lonely and they suck to be around. Unless, of course, that coldness fits the situation in which case it is outstanding! They do make great characters in action films and fiction but that's not real life and sadly a lot of men have bought into it as day-to-day living not case-by-case. Same for thoughtful. Try just being genuine. Be strong when strength is needed and thoughtful when that fits the bill. Most of all be yourself. Women, at least the ones worth pursuing,  hate posers.

OT:  Auto correct changed my heavy handed "pursuuuing" to "perusing." Not quite my intended thought.

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Permalink Reply by Nathan DeParis on March 2, 2013 at 2:55pm

I think in addition to the excitement, there is that disconnection. I feel that, ( and I could b totally wrong about this), but that the "bad guys" are disconnected from committing, sort of like Alpha wolf lone wolf syndrome all in one, so some women go in with the notion that they don't have to be to vulnerable because the guy is aloof and so rejection or the eventual dumping is less hurtful, plus they can get the attention they are craving and so like someone addicted to smoking they always reach for that drag on the smoke. I don't think that no matter how someone who actually cares tries to, you can't make everyone see that earthly happiness is always fleeting, to be chained in to earthly things as the highest good.

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Permalink Reply by StaggerLee on March 3, 2013 at 9:55pm

I suppose that desire for emotion torture could be true of more unstable women. Just so, I believe there is a certain segment of females that seek out bad boys because they want to nurture them and save them; mother them if you will. I was speaking of the more emotionally healthy women who I've talked to about this. Of course I may well have a dubious understanding of just what emotional stability might be. I'd run that by my wife but am afraid of what answer I might get.

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Permalink Reply by Brian W. Barrett on March 2, 2013 at 2:57pm

I've heard it put this way and it seems to be "field tested" appropriate:

Women like "jerks" because they "jerk" their emotions. Highs and lows. It's a roller-coaster ride on the emotional scale. Women being more biasedly sensitive to emotions eat it up. Not that the real "jerk" is healthy but a "good-guy" that can play with her emotions, not making her a head case, is by far a better choice to the woman, everything else being equal (WARNING: qualifying statement only used to prevent hacking someone off). Playing with the emotions should read 2 steps forward, one back, in a escalating fashion.

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Permalink Reply by Big Bad Moose on March 2, 2013 at 4:40pm

Stick to your virtues like Kipling put it in his famous poem If.

I believe that the factors are as sociological as they are psychological. A short essay could be written on this.

Girls initially go for the bad boys because they possess a) assertiveness and b) confidence, among other traits that are the woman's personal preference that they find attractive. They notice these men because, as mentioned prior by other members, they express their confidence and assertiveness at all times, thus being noticed before the good guys. A well rounded man would possess such traits as well, yet only be assertive, etc. when needed, which is rare. Therefore, they fall into the "good guy" category and slip under the radar of most women for the time being. And to them, they can only see the "bad boy" and the "good guy" groups. They are unable to see those who are on the fence because the wall is so far up in the sky that women can't see them and what actions they see will determine which group you fall into. Of course, it's not that straightforward because women, being human beings, aren't stupid. But that's scraping the surface of the social factor.

The psychology is infinitely complicated and it all boils down to personal wants and needs. A woman may have found the right man, but she wants to go on a joy ride with the bad boy for a grocery list of reasons or none at all (it happens). That's my educated opinion.

Regards,

BBM

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Permalink Reply by Daniel T. on March 2, 2013 at 5:12pm

I think all of the gentlemen above nailed it. Jerks appear confident. They may be or it may be a cover for insecurity. 

One should strive to be confident and secure about one's self. If you don't, work to improve it. Most of our problems can be fixed. Be assertive. 

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Permalink Reply by Nathan DeParis on March 2, 2013 at 7:54pm

It is surely a striving to be confident. But I also think that a vain confidence is taken as being authentic. I don't think that tooting your horn is very becoming at all. There is more mystery in quiet confidence.

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