Hello, my fellow men, it's me again!
Some half a year ago I was trying to date this marvel of a girl (long story), and this one time, we were talking and she asked me "What does it mean 'to be a real man' to you?". I told her that in my opinion, a real man does the right things, keeps his word, and in general, is a proper person. While I'm not sure if the answer satisfied her, it got me wondering - whether or not I know what a real man is, I still don't know how to actually become one. Even if my above answer is correct, it's only half the thing, it seems.
Just a couple of days ago, I was walking home from dance class with our teacher and another girl. The teacher is a flirty lady, and sometimes she flirts with me. On that particular day, both she and the other girl praised me a lot for my dancing, and for me generally being a nice and cool person. But when they began to discuss their men, the girl asked her "Well if you're single, why not try George?" to what she answered "Well George is nice and all, but I'm done with boys, I want a real man."
(While I appreciate the honesty, it was really rude, first off, because I was right beside them, second, because its fucking emasculating(!), and third because she just had to stop right before me - am I really that bad? I thought I was fine, didn't they praise me? Why flirt with me at all? I always end up being too late it seems. >.>)
I'm 24 right now, and I am facing a kind of personal crisis - I don't feel like a real man (no, not just because of this particular case - this one was more of an eye-opener). Sure, I have that manly organ in my pants, but that's not enough, right? Not for the rational, moral animals that we humans are. The above listed traits are one thing. Judging by the dance teacher's exs, I'd assume financial stability and 'maturity' are another. But there's still more to it. What bothers me is that I'm not competitive (really can't be arsed, don't see the point of it), that my ambitions are only so big (guess its the difficult situation in my country), and that I'm really not ready for any responsibility because I was never really given any.
So I guess what I'm asking is - how do you actually change? Desire is one thing, but what's the direction? Are there guidelines? My dad taught me some things, my mom taught me other things, but since they're both intellectuals, they couldn't teach me the less intellectual things. When I was a teen, I used to run with those 'problem kids', but I didn't learn too much from them - guess I'm just too well brought up for some of those things. I feel really useless, I have few practical skills (plumbing, repairing electrical devices, etc.), one of my cousins even rubs it in my face (because he's a true street kid, who used to run with gangs and whatnot, because he's a blue-collar and knows his way around tools and chit).
No need for the magisterial tone, Sir. Something for you to remember.
I suppose I could try to find a way to please you, but success looks unlikely, and life beckons.
Who am I? That's one of those universal questions, isn't it? But honestly, heck if I know. I'm just a guy. Sure, I could write you my biography, but that'd be a bit much to write and read. So I suppose I'll just try to answer.
I suppose I'm middle-class (because in our country, there's no true middle-class). I have masters in political science; I'm analytical but naive; I'm very polite (even to a fault sometimes) but that's because I try to avoid hurting people (because I have bad temper). I think I'm also a coward. When I was a kid, I was very sociable, wasn't afraid of confrontations, was open to people, now I've become the "gray-man". I don't like company, especially when there's a lot of people and they're noisy, most of them only want to discuss trivial things like football games, or cars, or something, that's why I have few friends. I'm also lazy, but that's because I have no motivation to actually do things. Yes, I still live with my folks, I want to move out, but I need a job that would pay more-or-less adequately so I could afford paying the bills and not starving. I hate office jobs, I had one recently, and while I sat at the computer all day and did very little, I was dead tired all the time. Right now, I work at a sociology\ political science lab. They pay is bad, but at least I'm not required to be there all the time. I applied for choreography recently, because teaching and dancing are the things I want to do. I don't date, almost at all. I like intellectual, artsy women, but most of them seem already taken. My peers are all getting married, it makes me mad - why are they in such a hurry anyway? Older women don't generally look at young men here, or they prefer not to talk about it because in our society it's still kind of taboo.
The stereotypical manly traits are, as previously mentioned - being handy, confident, financially secure, having your own place (at least), being driven and ambitious, being funny and witty; in girls' opinions (age 18-25, maybe older), also being cool and sexy, being a macho and being fashionable (you wouldn't believe how many fashion-clowns I've seen with girls!). Needless to say, I have almost none of these. I hate lies, but I feel like without lies, you can't get anywhere with women. There was even this saying "men love with their eyes, women love with their ears; that is why women use make-up, and men lie". I can be witty, but only when I get a conversation going. At the same time, I want to just, you know, have some fun before getting into a serious commitment, but none of the girls I meet want that, they all want to get married and to have kids. I really can't understand this.
Also, this thread has already had at least three mentions of god, the bible, and similar things. Why does everyone assume that everyone's a god-fearing christian? It's not that I don't appreciate the advice and participation, it just feels a bit inappropriate to me.
I don't think anybody's assumed that.
But anyway: here's something to think about. "I feel like without lies, you can't get anywhere with women.” Marketing, right? You have to sell yourself by deceiving the customer.
But what if a product is good enough you can tell the truth about it and people will still buy it?
What if a male is man enough that some women will want what he really is, not what he's presented as?
Be that man.
Even if you're the CEO of your company, you still need to find a way to get a conversation going with a woman, because if you sit there at a bar, for all she knows, you may just be a dressed up dude with some cash to throw around.
My point is that even if you've got a good product, you still need to advertise it, but in order to do that, you need to attract the client's attention, to draw them in.
Ok, very fair and open response. Thank you.
With still being honest, really think to yourself and let us know what it is that women want in a man. Look through everything you said about yourself and compare it.
I could write for awhile about what you have said, but I've been enjoying helping people come up with their own answers. I will only ask that when you answer, do so without putting blame on anything or listing things that you hate. If you find yourself doing so, stop and come back to the original question. What is it that you think women do want?
You don't want to play?
Everything you listed about yourself is exactly the opposite of what a woman wants.
She wants a confident man that can provide for himself, and has the ability to take care of her(even if just for the night). He doesn't make excuses. He doesn't follow fashion, he has his own style and he owns it, with confidence. He isn't macho, he is confident and takes charge. If there is a problem with anything, he finds a way to fix it.
You talk about hating lies, but no one here will tell you to lie. In fact, the only lie is that you can continue living with your parents, hating people, being lazy with no motivation, finding excuses not to go get a better job, etc and that somehow a woman will find any of that remotely attractive.
Look again at your OP. The women find you attractive, they consider some aspect of you positively, but they realize that you aren't a man because of what you listed. If you are truly analytical, if you are truly as intelligent as you claim, you already know this. I'm guessing it is why you refused to answer me, because you don't want to have to reveal the lie you keep telling yourself.
No, actually I didn't answer to your previous messages because my inbox gets a lot of notifications and I missed your posts.
You say women don't like fashionable machos? That's not true either. Women are different, and depending on what they want, what they like, and who they are, the may just like fashionable machos. I'm not fashionable, so my problem is (at least, another one) that I'm not stylish enough (I'm reading style books and stuff though to fix it).
You're saying I'm lazy for not finding a better job and moving out? Tell me, how can I find a decent job if I'll be required to stay in university for most of the day? Work night shifts as a bartender? I could do that, but when am I supposed to rest? Choreography requires a lot of physical work you know. What other options are there? Besides, bartender isn't a 'decent' job now, is it?
I get what you're saying, but tell me this then - I've got a friend, he's got a well-paid job, a house, can be a sweet-talker, and is quite confident of himself, and yet, he can't find a girl either. The only ones remotely receptive are the ones from abroad (one even wanted to marry him actually :D). Another friend of mine is even more 'normal' than the previous one - he goes to clubs, has a car, a decent job, he takes nobody's bs, and yet, he couldn't find himself a girlfriend. He got so depressed that he started visiting prostitutes just to get laid (imagine that!). Another friend of mine is a musician, plays the saxophone. When girls find out about it, they're all instantly "That's so hot!", but none of them actually wants to start dating him, despite him being stylish, having a car and a job (two jobs actually). He actually once told me this thing he noticed: when he walks the street and approaches girls, most of them want nothing to do with him, and he said they weren't even beauty queens, at the same time, when he's invited to play at some fancy parties, the girls there are really beautiful and very receptive. He doesn't understand why this happens. I suggested that it's because they perhaps think that since he's at the party, even if he's a musician, he's already a 'somebody', but he didn't seem to agree with this.
And all these guys are witty and funny. So what's their problem?
WTF? How do you go from saying that women are different to saying that you have one fix, which is learning style? I said find your own style and own it.
You said you are lazy. You have a masters but you can't stand to work in an office or for long hours, so you make shit pay. You get to rest when you have earned it. Trust me boy, you haven't come close to what many of the men on this site have had to do to get where they are to earn some rest. And don't give me lip about going to school, I earned my MBA while working full time, was married and worked on/maintained/owned my own home.
Bartender can be a great job, esp the "mixologists". I personally hate them, but they are artists that can pull down some seroius money while loving what they do. Even if all you do is open beers or making simple mixed drinks, you are out there doing something.
I don't know the other guys, I haven't talked to them and I don't know anything else about them, they could be creepy, assholes, have no idea how to close the deal, smell, look in the wrong places, continually make the wrong move, lie about how hard they try. I'm talking to you, you are the one asking to be a real man because you can't get dates. They are not remotely relevant to this discussion.
I didn't understand your first question - what fix? You mean my solution? I never said style was a solution, I said that the lack of style is one of my problems, but one I'm working on - learning about style, and finding my own.
First off, Business Administration is different from Choreography in that you don't do as much physically - as a choreographer\ dance teacher, you have to dance A LOT - and it's not just your fancy club-stomping and ass-shaking either. It's tiresome in itself.
Second, what "many men on this site had to do to get where they are to earn some rest" is their business, and their life choices, as such, their experience is different (including you being married at that point). What I'm saying is that one way or the other, the human body (and mind) needs its rest - I'm not talking about lounging at the beach, but of a simple nights' sleep.
Thirdly, the educational system in the States (I'm assuming you got your MBA in the States) is different from what we have here, not to mention that some professions have part-time classes, while others don't. I'm sure BA has them, since it's one of those popular professions.
And don't give me "you're not doing anything at your job", because even if I'm not at the lab, I still have things to do.
Anyway, I think this conversation is starting to get heated. I got your point, and I thank you for the input.