Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Herb Munson on May 7, 2012 at 10:59am

My apologies, I didn't see you had a gun. :)

Permalink Reply by JonEdanger on May 7, 2012 at 11:10am

awesome!

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on May 7, 2012 at 3:43am

Liam said:

1. It was an illustration that you cannot choose a belief in that manner. 

Agreed... though, I don't believe that is the manner of the choice... there is no gun to the head. that analogy doesn't really fit... it is more like choosing which fork in the road to take when driving in the fog at night, knowing that the old park ranger warned that the bridge is out for the one on the Left, but can he be trusted? and who knows..? You can't see the sign indicating which road to avoid... and there is no proof that there ever was a warning sign to begin with... So you can choose to take a chance on one of two roads and drive on, hoping for the best...  or you can play it safe by pulling over and waiting for sunrise, then trusting that the park ranger was telling the truth, take the right fork, and drive slowly...

2. I bring it into the discussion because it is a flaw in Pascal's construction. If you are "wagering" and rolling the dice, you need to have the odds fully mapped. You cannot artificially constrain it to just the King and the Ace, ignoring that all the other cards are in the deck, regardless of your beliefs about those cards. 

However, in an either/or thought experiment, one can reduce the variables down to a binary choice, or a series of binary choices... Debunking polytheism when comparing it with Monotheism was a binary choice made prior to (or after) the binary choice of God(s) or no God(s)... otherwise, you are just muddying the waters with the arbitrary inclusion of other variables in the thought experiment.

I have not used an ad hominems - those would be attacks on your character as a method of discrediting your arguments.

I intend them as insults, flat out. You are perhaps the least Christian man I have spoken to, who claims to be a believer. 

Therefore I am worthy of being insulted because I don't fit your definition of a Christian...
Spoken like a True Scotsman... Good to see your character come through... 

Matthew 15:11 (KJV)

Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

The thing is, the Truth is offensive to most people... the Bible is offensive to most people... I am here seeking knowledge of the Truth and sharing what I have discovered along the way, and refining and correcting my understanding as I go... I don't really care what you think of me, so the insults don't bother me... It is not about me, but what the Bible says... It is not about living up to an atheist's or catholic's standard of what a True Christian is... it is about Jesus Christ.

John 15:18 (KJV)

¹⁸ If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

¹⁹ If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

²⁰ Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

²¹ But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

²³ He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

²⁵ But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

²⁷ And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on May 7, 2012 at 9:29am

1. I disagree that such is the nature of the choice. It is hardly a kindly old park ranger who threatens you with eternal damnation if you do not take his advice. 

2. The problem is that he reduced to an either/or construction, something which is not that simple - he is working with odds, and then ignoring the majority of the statistical possibilities. Hence the false dichotomy. 

3. You are worthy to be insulted because you spout nonsense, do poor research, spread mis-information (I am giving you the benefit of assuming it is because you believe it to be true, not intentionally spreading lies) and insult others of your faith because your interpretation of the bible is much more rigid and narrow than just about anyone else's - making you among the most conceited, unforgiving and arrogant people I have interacted with.

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on May 7, 2012 at 11:27am

Well.. praise the Lord...!

God doesn't threaten humans with Hellfire... it is more of a loving warning that Hell will be the consequences of our actions if we proceed in our sinful ways without turning to God for forgiveness and reconciliation with our fellow man...

A loving parent warns their children to not play in traffic because they know of the consequences if they do... if the child disobeys, the parent has a right to discipline the child to prevent a future disaster... if the child runs away from home because they don''t like how mean and restricting their parents are, and they play in traffic and get hit and die, then that is the choice of the child, and not the fault of the parent... God is a respecter of free-will... He won't lock up His children to prevent them from making harmful choices, but He will warn and reprimand them when they do...

Permalink Reply by JonEdanger on May 7, 2012 at 11:33am

God is a respecter of free-will

Free will - it's a bitch!

 

Permalink Reply by LShieldes on May 7, 2012 at 11:36am

Love that movie

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on May 7, 2012 at 11:39am

Eternal damnation is a warning and a reprimand? 

You know what? You are insane. I'm done with you. 

Permalink Reply by Elliott Jason Ridgway on May 10, 2012 at 2:51pm

Hey man,  whatever works for you... 

Ezekiel 3:16-21 (KJV)

¹⁶ And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

¹⁷ Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

¹⁸ When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

¹⁹ Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

²⁰ Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

²¹ Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Permalink Reply by LShieldes on May 7, 2012 at 11:49am

What is the point of turning to a God you claim has abandoned us for fear that his Bible might become tainted?

Permalink Reply by Chuck Knight on May 7, 2012 at 12:11pm

A loving parent warns their children to not play in traffic because they know of the consequences if they do... if the child disobeys, the parent has a right to discipline the child to prevent a future disaster

 

A loving parent warns their toddler not to play in traffic, because the toddler is incapable of understanding the consequences.

 

A loving parent also affords his children more personal responsibility (and the associated consequences) as they get older, and better understand.

 

Most Judeo-Christian flavors have something like an age of consent.  In Judaism it's called a bar-mitzvah.  The child is recognized as an adult, and is responsible for his own consequences.

 

Take a step back and look at it this way.  God created the heavens and the earth, etc...and eventually placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.  Well, we screwed up.  Back in Eden, we screwed up.  But a loving parent would give his children a second chance after screwing up, right?

 

Jesus is our second chance.

Permalink Reply by Liam S. on May 7, 2012 at 12:20pm

I thought the flood wiping the planet clean of all life, was the second chance. But either way... 

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." Deu 24:16

So why, again, does this "original sin" doctrine stick around? 

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