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While the individuals don't wear masks the group as a whole does. Some just find that a little fishy."
Academia and Young Men: The Interview Some ‘Feminists’ Won’t Want You To Read
Please take a look at this article and post your thoughts about it. Thanks!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rick Shelton on -
Majorities can be victimized. How is it right for a white male with a 4.0 GPA and an outstanding record of public achievement to be denied a place at a college simply because a minority female who has a (although still impressive ) 3.8 GPA and no record of publich achievement applied for the same college? Why should she get accepted while he is denied? Why is it right for a white male to be denied a business loan while a minority female should get one right away even though his business plan is better than hers? Why can't we judge the applicants simply on the basis of their achievements and not on gender or race?
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Permalink Reply by Bruce S. Curtiss on -
Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.
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Permalink Reply by Rick Shelton on
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In the article they talk as though it is a Win-Lose situation, why can't it be win-win? Why does one 'side' have to lose in order for the other to win? In the words of (not-so-great) Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?". I believe in equal opportunity as long as it is equal to all; no gender, racial, religious bias, simply equal. We don't need to throw out the baby with the bath water, keep what is good and get rid of the bad.
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Permalink Reply by David F. on -
Well said. However I do find it funny to see all the minority and women focused groups yet very few male or majority focused groups on campuses. I have no problem with the groups other then the concern that some groups are banned from existence. A test I use for such situations is changing a few of the descriptors and see if it still feels right. Change Asian to European or women's to men's and see if the club name and purpose still would be allowed. If it would not I don't think the other group should be allowed also. Fairness to all and openness in a collage setting enhances education.
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Permalink Reply by Vytautas on -
There is something about majorities that don't really require clubs. Because majorities without a doubt have control in the form of positions of power and responsibility. They don't need anyone to fight for their rights, because their rights are so rarely trampled.
Plus, there are many men's clubs--fraternal organizations of all kinds. Knights of Columbus, college frats, Freemasons, etc. There are plenty of European culture clubs--Italian, Polish, German, French etc etc.
So I expect you, I challenge you, to be at the forefront of helping your sisters, and your brothers of different color and creed, in their struggles. I expect you, I challenge you to be at the meetings, to have connections to those communities, to learn about others and be a person for others!
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Permalink Reply by David F. on
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Yep that is the counter argument I have heard, but it is the issue argument that the post that started this discussion.
By saying you can't have a club because we think you don't "Need it" sets a line in the sand. If you keep drawing that line in the sand then I guess the line exists and you make it damn clear you don't think you are like me. So I guess I should only hire people like me, since you told me that that is how it "works" so many times in so many little ways. Personally I don't by into this logic, but it is a repeated message made.
Work wise. I challenge you to drop the minority card and work hard, get your skills set strong and use corporate diction in your language. I challenge you to keep your culture strong at home and show up ready to assimilate to the corporate needs.
Personally I don't care what your wrapper is. If you show up suited up to blend in, If you can do your job, good. If you do it well with enthusiastic drive. Fantastic, and I will promote that person! What you eat, who you pray to (if you do) , who you sleep with, etc , I really don't care about, but I do support your right to your culture on your time, don't forget to reciprocate and support mine also.
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Permalink Reply by Vytautas on
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Well, we're not talking about the 'corporate' world, so I'm not sure about the relevance of your argument. We are talking about cultural clubs at universities.
You distort (intentionally?) what I said. I said that pan-European clubs aren't necessary. I did not, as you claim, say that "you can't have [them]". You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts, and not to putting words in my mouth or on my keyboard.
What I am saying is that there are plenty of such clubs for European cultures. Therefore, your complaint that the "European" identity has been snubbed is gratuitous.
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Permalink Reply by David F. on
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Vytautas,
Clearly I misinterpreted
“So I expect you, I challenge you, to be at the forefront of helping your sisters, and your brothers of different color and creed, in their struggles. I expect you, I challenge you to be at the meetings, to have connections to those communities, to learn about others and be a person for others!”.
I extended the relevance of your challenge to the working world. I take it this was an overstatement of your words. I apologize for that. I did not intend to distort your words.
Cheers
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Permalink Reply by Vytautas on
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Thank you David. That is very gracious of you, the mark of a true gentleman.
I do agree that when it comes to the work world there is less room for cultural clubs, etc. But that's because the corporate world is not about learning or having a cultural community, as a university is. The corporate world isn't about whether it's licit to have an African club or European club because it's not about culture at all.
In general though, I think it's apparent that European is normative. For instance, when history is required in college, or high school, it is typically European and American history. Not African or Asian. Cultural organizations can help push back on that and provide information, education, and a sense of community.
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Permalink Reply by Rebekah on -
There's just fewer cultural clubs for workers, period. UCSB, the last university mentioned on AoM, has 51 cultural/ethnic clubs. Off the top of my head, I can name only 7 for adults/workers in this major metropolitan area.
Though it's not exactly analogous. Life outside the ivory towers is more varied. There may not be a Greek-American Professionals Association of San Francisco, but there are at least 2 Greek churches. There may not be an African Diasporic Cultural Resource Center, but there is a Museum of the African Diaspora. So just because there aren't corresponding clubs/groups/associations/organizations does not mean that there aren't mediating institutions fulfilling an equivalent role.
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Permalink Reply by Vytautas on
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I was thinking more about the corporation as an analogue of the university, and of course my design was to show that they are not analogous at all.
For instance, it is perfectly proper that UCSB has student organizations. But Bank of America doesn't have any cultural organizations... and why should it?
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Permalink Reply by Rebekah on
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My graduate school had a Democrats Club. I guess that would be a majority club, insofar as I'm pretty sure the majority of students were Democrats. But it's not like meetings had hundreds of attendees. In fact, the minority Republicans usually had better turn-outs.
The fact is, majority clubs, if they're really a majority, are boring. A shared majority race or political party or gender usually isn't enough to create a community. Thus, the Democrats Club was really for students particularly interested in party politics. The Women's Club [grad school, so women were technically a minority, but the idea is the same] was for women who thought there were special considerations or concerns of young women attorneys.
Likewise, the Christian Legal Society in Texas and Oklahoma, where I imagine most attorneys are sociologically Christians, is for a particular breed of evangelical attorney, not really for most attorneys. The experience of a CLS member in Dallas is so different from one in San Francisco, the Texans are almost hostile to us Left Coasters. I hear corresponding stories about Jewish members of the IDF. That's not effectually all IDF members, as they see it, it's the particularly religious ones.
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