I was recently at a barbecue at a friend's house. While there someone brought up the topic of manly values and of course the conversation went into a mix of opinions on the subjects of morality, manly skills, dress sense etc. But one of the women who was there asked a question that I couldn't really understand the way of thinking to even make it cross someone's mind.
'Isn't a man's manly value and worth to be decided by a woman?'
How do you men feel about such a question? Too me, a man defines his manliness through himself and his life, not through the opposite sex (though being a gentlemen towards the opposite sex is definitely good for your man credentials). But this way of thinking suggests that a man's value should be at mercy to his lady (which is utter rubbish). What's your opinion on the matter?
Tell that biatch to take her biatch-azz to the kitchen and bake me a pie.
Is a woman's worth defined by a man? The short answer is 'no'.
It is a bit more complicated than a flat 'no' -- but 'no' gets the idea across. There are some men that define "manly" as simply "not womanly" ... which, in some respects, is defining yourself in relatiohship to women. It strikes me as a case of knowing who you aren't, rather than who you are, though. I think the concepts of 'chivalry' and 'gentlemanliness' are largely defined by treatement of women. I suppose a man's clothes can somewhat be judged on appeal to women.
Manly value, virtue, skill, etc. are not dependent on women except insofar as a man's treatment of women reflects on his value and virtue. In that case, she is more of an indicator of his manliness than a decider thereof.
A man's clothes should be judged solely on their appeal to the man wearing them. All other opinions are irrelevant.
Nonsense. There are loads of stupid looking clowns whose clothes appeal to the man wearing them.
Clothes are largely irrelevant themselves, so ranking opinions on them is mostly a waste of time.
No I think clothing is a great way of noting people who wish to look like clowns. They also let me know who to talk to when I wish a clown to the job.
Ever hear of a trophy wife? This is a bit of what JB's getting at, but there is certainly a sense in which women can be used as a way to display a man's worth, in a way similar to the way cars or houses are used, or marathon times, and similar to the way dollars tell us the worth of houses and shoes.
See also the Iliad.
We also like to think we set standards by externals. It's stupid, ugly Americans who expect foreign countries to be more like the US simply because that's how things are done here. Thus all the effort into international conventions, and all the struggles in TGD to find common principles from which to debate. So, on some level, the suggestion that men not be allowed to set their own standards makes sense. After all, the goddesses, including Athena, chose a man to make the Judgment. Seems it should work with the genders switched.
You're putting women in the same category as "things"? Not manly at all. A man could have a "not-so-beautiful" wife and still be a 'real' man. A man, himself, may be not-so-pleasant to look at and still be a 'real' man.
An explanation is not an argument.
A donut without a hole is a danish.
I think one can extend trophy wife syndrome to both people now. If you have money, you have time, if you have time you can workout and eat right. Poverty now, includes the obese, and out of shape. If you want to show you are doing well, you need to look fit and trim also.
A fit body is the new social cue, along side dress, house, car, and mate, that you are prosperous.
I'm in a business that deals with high net-worth couples, and I am seeing that more and more lately. I still see husbands with much younger, probably second wives though.